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ENOCH-2699399

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Lives well by G-d's Laws
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We Are All In This Together (Enoch and Al-316)

Sun May 1, 2011 5:56 PM EDT
religion, love, christianity, god, jesus, judaism, fellowship, working-together, g-d
By Enoch-2699399
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Al-316 and I will each draw from our traditions to illustrate this point.  We are all in this life together. It's best we work together, in an atmosphere of mutual respect and tolerance. If you have something from your tradition, be it that of a religious or humanistic nature, please feel free to share.

This is from our good friend Al-316. It is his view regarding some of what Christianity offers on brotherhood.

Part I. (Al-316)

This portion of the discussion concerning the brotherhood of man is devoted to one word. That word is, Love.

To most of us, that word is very important. It takes on added importance when you hear someone say to you, I love you. These words have the power to brighten our lives for a lifetime. The failure to use those words can cast a shadow on one's life as well. Those words could be coming from one of your family member's, one of your dear friends, or your romantic interest. The personal relationships these words imply is one to the most significant relationships we will ever have in our life.

It is interesting to observe that the word, love, is used 281 times in The Holy Bible. 124 times in the Old Testament, and 157 times in the New Testament.

In English, the word, Love, is used to indicate numerous and various favorable degrees of affection. Whether it be used to indicate a positive reaction to the smell of a flower or how we feel towards our children. The word, Love, is used to express one of man's strongest emotions.

How we regard each other as human beings varies, but is of considerable importance. God considers how we interact with our fellow brothers and sisters so important that The Bible addresses this issue separately. The Bible tells us that we should love one another. In fact, Jesus commands us to love one another.

To some, The Bible might appear to only be a confusing Book of rules. Telling us to do this, don't do that, over and over again. As a Christian, one might wonder how important is this command to love one another. Interestingly, this question is answered in response to a different question posed to Jesus by a lawyer. The lawyer asked Jesus what is the most important commandment of all. The actual exchange between the lawyer and Jesus can be found in Matthew 22:35 through Matthew 22:40. The following is from the King James version:

Matthew 22:35 Then one of them which was a lawyer, asked him (Jesus) a question, tempting him (Jesus) and saying,

Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the great Commandment in the Law?

Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord they God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Matthew 22:38 This is the first and great Commandment.

Matthew 22:39 And the second is like unto  it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.  

Matthew 22:40 On these two Commandments hang all the Law and Prophets.

Notice how Jesus mentioned the importance of loving our neighbors without being prompted with a question. Jesus further emphasized its importance by indicating its ranking when He compared it to the most important Commandment. And Jesus did not stop there. He said that all of the other laws are a reflection of these Commandments. My conclusion is that loving each other is supremely important in G-d's eyes.

Now, lets take a closer look at the definition of the word, Love, as we find it in The Bible. This is necessary because, you will recall, The Bible is a translation from other languages. The New Testament in which the Book of Matthew is found, was translated from manuscripts which were written in Greek. A study of Greek will reveal that there are three different Greek words for, Love, whereas  English just uses one word. So, in order to obey the Commandment to love thy neighbor as thyself, we need to determine exactly what Jesus meant by His use of the word, Love.

To answer this question, we will find that the Greeks had three different words which meant, Love.

They are: Eros ------ Love in a romantic or sexual context.

                Phila ------ Love as within friendship.

                Agape ---- Love as in an unconditional manner without expectation of reciprocity. This is similar as in the love between a parent and a child. Doing a little research we will learn that the Greek word used to record what Jesus meant when He said, Love, was Agape. 

And finally, let us look to see what Jesus meant when He used the word, Neighbor. Again we will consider the Greek word which was used in the original manuscripts to record the record of the words of Jesus. The word which we read as, Neighbor, was translated from the Greek word, Plesion. Plesion literally means anyone in close proximity without regard to gender, nationality, or religion. Put another way, it means everyone, without exception.

In summary, as a Christian, we are commanded, in order of importance, to love God and to love our fellow human beings, no less than, and in the same manner as we love ourselves. And on a side note, Jesus says that all of the other Commandments are intended to reflect and embody the love we should have for each other.

Imagine for a moment, that this world would be like if everyone did as Jesus stated. Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to share my understanding of God's word.      

Part II. (Enoch). This is my take on part of what Judaism has to share about our being in this life together.

In Parsaht Vayekrah - Kedoshim (Leviticus 19:3) Laws regarding Ritual and Fundamental Morals) it is written, You shall fear every man his Mother and his Father, and you shall keep my Sabbaths.

This is a repetition, in slightly different words and order, of two of the Ten Commandments. To honor your parents, and to remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it Holy. In a commentary on this passage in Rabbinical literature, the story of Dama is told. It is a beautiful tale. It speaks of how people of different religions and cultures share common values. How we can use those values to work with, learn from, and teach one another. How it can all come together for mutual benefit.

Dama was not of the Jewish People. He was a dealer in Jewels in Ashkelon.  He had in stock a jewel needed to replace one of the precious stones for the High Priest's Breast Plate. Buyers were sent from Jerusalem to negotiate the gemstone. Dama agreed to sell the Jewel for one hundred Dinars (currency of time).

When Dama went to his stock room to get the article, he found his Father sleeping there. He returned and said he could not sell the stone after all. The agents offered him first two, then three, and ultimately one thousand Dinars for the Gem. Dama refused. The buyers took their leave.

Soon afterward, Dama's father woke up. Dama ran after the buyers with the Jewel. They offered him the one thousand Dinars, which was their last offer.

He refused that sum. He reminded them the original deal was for one hundred Dinars. He told them he would not profit from the honor he paid to his father, by not interrupting the man's rest. He would accept only one hundred Dinars, the original and fair deal all agreed to do.

What I get from this story is that we are all in this life together. The universality of filial reverence, and of the value for honesty in our interactions is a basic part of us. The need to work together, and the desire to be true to our values, and fair to others spans and transcends things which separate us.

In Proverbs it is written, Shem tov como shemen tov. A good name is like a precious oil. Dama was indeed a man with a well earned good name. He respected his father. He was honest in his business dealings. He would not unfairly profit by exploiting the needs of others. He respected others as himself.

We are all in this life together. When we respect each others differences, when we find common ground upon which to form coalitions, to work together for the greater good we are doing our part to be in this life successfully together.

As Rabbi Hillel is often quoted in Pirke Avoth, The Sayings of the Fathers, Im ain anili, mi li? Im lo besvili leat's mi? V'eh im lo akshav, ad matai? If I am not for myself, who will be? If I am only for myself, what am I? If not now, when?

In this life, we need to self-advocate, to work well and look out for (be our brothers keepers). Not tomorrow. For if we wait until then, we may run out of time. The time to work with each other for mutual benefit is now.

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Enoch-2699399

The thrust of this article is that we are in this life together. To get along with and work with each other. Any comments designed to derail this point will be deleted as off topic. Any comments showing disrespect to what others hold Sacred will be deleted as inflammatory. If you feel the need to be condescending, disrespectful, or sow the seeds of discord and or discontent you are free to write your own article. Here that will not be allowed.

If you come from a different religious or humanitarian tradition, or from either Christianity or Judaism feel free to add your ideas and points about getting along together in a spirit of respect, love, fellowship etc.

There are many paths to getting along. Let's respectfully explore any and all of them here.

It is with gratitude to our good friend Al-316 for his meticulous scholarship and generosity of spirit that this co-authored article is presented for your review and constructive contribution.

May the Source of All Bless those who follow the path of Fellowship. Enoch and Al.

  • 20 votes
Reply#1 - Sun May 1, 2011 6:09 PM EDT
KYPIAKOC

Wonderful message, and wonderfully written. Bravo to both authors:)

  • 11 votes
#1.1 - Tue May 3, 2011 4:27 PM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Thanks. Smiles. Enoch.

  • 10 votes
#1.2 - Tue May 3, 2011 4:37 PM EDT
Al-316

KYPIAKOC, my friend, thank you for your kind words and for honoring us with a visit. Al

  • 11 votes
#1.3 - Tue May 3, 2011 8:30 PM EDT
Levi777

Al-316, thank you for the invitation. I have read the article by you and Enoch. It is well written, and perhaps even more important that being written well, it is true. I wrote an article last year that got scant mention, however, at the urging of some friends I printed it out and took it to our local newspaper, requesting that they print it in their Religion column on Sunday. I have yet to hear from them, 8 months later.

In that article I spoke very much in the same vein, with some notable differences. I share these because I believe they add to the topic.

The title of my article was "What could we accomplish if we all did this?" I spoke about loving our neighbors, and I meant, in our neighborhoods. We have become a nation of strangers, and in a very many neighborhoods, we don't know our neighbors. It always grieves me very much when I read about some elderly person who has died in their home, and they are not found for some long period of time, be it days or weeks. No one should die alone, or if they do, at least no one should die without the knowledge that they are loved. I planned on making the 350 mile trip to see my step-dad for the specific purpose of telling him that someone in this world loves him; me. He was living in a house where everyone hated him. He died alone, in his room, in his chair, two weeks before I was to go see him. Death waits for no one. You cannot wait to do the things of love because opportunity may quickly pass.

Anyway, I spoke of the reasons for loving our neighbors. We cannot know why Cranky Lady two houses over is cranky. Perhaps she harbors a pain, physical, emotional, spiritual, and has learned to mistrust kindness because kindness cannot take her as she is, and runs away. Perhaps Crank Lady needs someone who won't give up? What is the value of a life? Is Cranky Lady worth less than others? God makes no garbage, no junk. We make junk of ourselves, but if we are willing to realize that our best efforts have come to nothing, and our choices we have made out of our fears, and our wounded ways have only brought us and others pain and anguish, isn't that the place where mercy is found? Let us not be children in our thinking. Mercy follows judgement. If we judge ourselves in truth, can we not ask for mercy? And we who are human, if we have received mercy, can we not give it?

Jesus told a parable, recorded in Mathew 18:

23"For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves. 24"When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25"But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made. 26"So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.' 27"And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt. (MERCY!)

28"But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, 'Pay back what you owe.' 29"So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you.' 30"But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed. 31"So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. 32"Then summoning him, his lord said to him, 'You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33'Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?' 34"And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
----------------------------------
Jesus told this parable to emphasize the point of forgiving our brothers from the heart. Yet this follows hard on His teaching that we should "Judge not, so you will not be judged. For the same judgement you use is the same judgment that will be used against you."

If we have ever been forgiven, if we have ever received mercy, if we have ever been told that our offenses are but human nature, and for this we are given understanding, then we are at great peril if we do not offer the same to others!

In addition there are reasons why we should have cohesiveness in our world. If we are loving our neighbor, then that which is false, which is not love, which is evil and aggressive, will have a very difficult time taking root. Children know a stranger because he is not familiar. Judgeing by how many of our communities operate, you'd think we'd all be standing around pointing the finger and yelling "STRANGER! STRANGER!"

I read an encouraging statistic: In the neighborhood of 268,000 cases, children have moved back in with their parents, or parents have moved in with their children. This is astounding! Who would have thought there could be an upside to the downturn of the economy? For decades we have been a society of estrangement. Children grow up, they get jobs, and move away, and the parents are left to themselves. Parents figure the kids are raised, and become expats in Mexico. Family cohesion is often non-existent once the children leave the home. And we are poorer, and more downtrodden, and the sadder for it. How can grandchildren learn to respect and love the elderly if they never see Gram and Gramps? How can they take advantage of a lifetime of wisdom and knowledge, if they cannot sit on Grandpa's knee and listen to his stories? Face it, the internet, telephone, video conferencing, it's not the same, and is a pale substitute. Families are the fabric of society, and when they are fractured, society becomes fractured.

Sorry to get so longwinded. Your article addresses a topic close to my heart.

  • 10 votes
#1.4 - Tue May 3, 2011 10:49 PM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear Levi777: Thanks for sharing your wisdom. It is a great addition to, and very helpful with what we are doing here.

FR invite sent. Please do come to my and our threads often.

Enoch.

  • 9 votes
#1.5 - Tue May 3, 2011 10:58 PM EDT
Levi777

FR accepted. See ya around :)

  • 9 votes
#1.6 - Tue May 3, 2011 11:05 PM EDT
Al-316

Levi777, my friend, your wise insights continue to enrich our lives. Thank you for visiting us and sharing with us your insight.

No, I do not consider your comment long-winded. I consider a story worth telling. Thank you.

  • 8 votes
#1.7 - Tue May 3, 2011 11:54 PM EDT
McSpocky

Wow, this really goes well with a seed I put up about Christians who believe in torture. Personally, I don't understand how a person can believe in torture and still call themselves a Christian.

The only way we can grow as a species, IMO, is if we work together and for the benefit of one another. We must do the same to keep our home, this earth, doing well. If we only fight one another, then we will shrivel up and die eventually. Does that make sense?

Very good article, thank you for sharing. :)

  • 8 votes
#1.8 - Sat May 14, 2011 6:11 PM EDT
Al-316

McSpocky, thank you for dropping by. I missed your Christian/torture seed. I will go track it down.

Personally, I don't understand how a person can believe in torture and still call themselves a Christian.

I agree with you. Life seems to be full of contradictions.

Peace, my friend. Al

  • 7 votes
#1.9 - Sat May 14, 2011 6:20 PM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear Friend McSpocky: Thanks for gracing us with your visit. It is my great honor to co-author a piece on fellowship with our good friend Al-316. Even I can get something right when working with a person of Al's stature and wisdom.

We all believe that it is best to work together. We all know deep down that harmony is better than discord. For our family, community, country, species, planet and for G-d.

Peace and blessings, my good friend. Enoch.

  • 7 votes
#1.10 - Sat May 14, 2011 7:49 PM EDT
Mrs D-1475814

I put up about Christians who believe in torture. Personally, I don't understand how a person can believe in torture and still call themselves a Christian

So sorry I missed that article from you dear McSpocky. I will try to find it to read. Just from your comment my friend :).... There are a lot of people who do evil in the name of Christianity, Judaism, Muslin and etc.. The only people who fall for it are the ones who wish ill upon the current religious group they hate by choice. Evil and hatred comes from all races, religions and anything else haters can think up.

  • 6 votes
#1.11 - Sat May 14, 2011 9:34 PM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear Friend Mrs. D.: I concur. People can misuse anything, including something as emotionally charged as religion to justify anything, including the most unG-dly conduct.

The problems lie in our mortal weaknesses. It is noted that secular barbarity is no less lethal or justifiable. It is less what a person believes, or chooses not to believe. It is all about what they choose to do with it.

May G-d continue bless you and yours Mrs. D. You know what to do in life.

Enoch.

  • 6 votes
#1.12 - Sat May 14, 2011 10:16 PM EDT
Jaime 777

Thank you for the link to read this Al, it is truly a wonderful read and so true! If only more could read this and understand it like we do.

God Bless and have a wonderful day!

    #1.13 - Mon Nov 7, 2011 12:17 PM EST
    Enoch-2699399

    Dear Jaime: A warm welcome to you in our, Al's and my articles. FR invite sent.

    Peace and Blessings, Enoch.

    • 1 vote
    #1.14 - Mon Nov 7, 2011 1:03 PM EST
    Reply
    Abby.

    I think it's a human's responsibility to be HUMANE
    JMO
    Great article, Enoch. As always.
    :)

    • 12 votes
    Reply#2 - Sun May 1, 2011 6:23 PM EDT
    Enoch-2699399

    Dear Abby: I concur. Great point. Thanks for sharing it. As always, for honoring us with your presence.

    Enoch.

    • 10 votes
    #2.1 - Sun May 1, 2011 6:28 PM EDT
    Abby.

    Enoch,
    Good friend, surely the honor is mine.
    :)

    • 8 votes
    #2.2 - Sun May 1, 2011 6:31 PM EDT
    GendoIkari

    Yes Enoch. You've captured the essence of Christ's message. Now go tell it to the hate filled malicious prevaricated pseudo-christian teabaggers.

    • 8 votes
    #2.3 - Sun May 1, 2011 7:52 PM EDT
    Al-316

    Gendolkari, thank you for stopping by. Your comment is, sadly, a commentary on today's society. Most true Christians do not get a lot of publicity. They quietly and humbly practice their faith out of the spot light.

    There are some as you point out who, in their quest for personal glory, claim that their actions are blessed by G-d. They have forgotten, or maybe never really understood, God's second greatest commandment.

    • 12 votes
    #2.4 - Mon May 2, 2011 12:21 AM EDT
    Enoch-2699399

    Dear Friend Gendolkari: The credit for the accurate and moving narrative of Jesus in this article goes to our good friend Al-316. Thanks for sharing your ideas.

    G-d bless, Enoch.

    • 9 votes
    #2.5 - Mon May 2, 2011 12:28 AM EDT
    Al-316

    Abby. thank you for visiting. HUMANE is a very appropriate word to here. I am glad to see you again, my friend.

    • 11 votes
    #2.6 - Mon May 2, 2011 12:42 AM EDT
    Abby.

    :)

    • 7 votes
    #2.7 - Mon May 2, 2011 12:43 AM EDT
    GendoIkari

    They have forgotten, or maybe never really understood, God's second greatest commandment.

    Which is very unfortunate because it makes it nearly impossible for me to follow it when I see just how bad they ignore that commandment every single day in their vile rhetoric against liberals.

    I've seen this game played over and over by the Reich Wing, during my own lifetime, as well as much of the world's history before my time. They say a bunch of malicious garbage, brainwash poor ignorant souls with hate, and then walk all over everyone who doesn't agree with their hate filled highly misguided pseudo-christian belief structure. That's always a loosing situation for everyone else who tries to abide by that commandment. If no one opposes their BS for long enough, that's basically how people end up in concentration camps.

    • 6 votes
    #2.8 - Mon May 2, 2011 2:06 AM EDT
    Al-316

    Gendolkari, I understand the frustration you must feel when seeing so much hypocrisy. It chills me also. The only words I can offer you, is to follow your own heart. What ever you decide will be the best thing for you. You will find a friend request waiting for your consideration.

    • 8 votes
    #2.9 - Mon May 2, 2011 3:11 AM EDT
    Enoch-2699399

    Dear Friend Gendolkari: I concur with what Al said. In the Torah it is written, Tredek, Tzedek Tirdof. Justice justice shall you pursue. It is good to speak out. It is also good to do so in a way that gives those acting in error some wiggle room to change, so they are not backed into a corner in which they have painted themselves. It is for this reason that in Hebrew, the same verb stem root (shoresh) for justice is for charity.

    In Hebrew, justice is Tzedek. Charity is Tzadakah. To combine justice with mercy is a difficult. but worthwhile effort.

    G-d bless, and thank you for sharing. Enoch.

    • 10 votes
    #2.10 - Mon May 2, 2011 9:36 AM EDT
    Levi777

    I very much feel the frustration when the people of the Book, be they Jews or Christians, do not do the things written therein. Of course, the fulfillment of Jeremiah 31:32 ff is active today, upon all the earth, as is Isaiah 49. Please consider:

    Jeremiah:

    31"Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. 33"But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34"They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

    And Isaiah 49:

    6He says, "It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant
    To raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore the preserved ones of Israel;
    I will also make You a light of the nations
    So that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth."

    Each man on this earth has the laws of God written on his heart. To the Jew first, and also to everyone else. And when those who have the witness of His laws in their hearts, and their eyes read the words of His sacred book, and yet they go and do that which is contrary, they fail to understand some VERY important truths. Especially grievous are those who reach high and lofty positions who rightly denounce sin, only to be found caught in the very sin which they denounce.

    Now the important truths of which I speak is this: Mankind is unique among the creation of God, in that we have free will. It was theorized that all the host of heaven made a choice when satan rebelled against God, and they are unable to choose again. We however, make a choice, and during our lives on this earth, may choose and choose and choose. We alone are unique in this attribute, except for Father, Son and Spirit, who as One are sovereign, but will never choose to do evil (evil defined as that which is non-God, or anti-God). Now, in that we have this free will, we are free to choose, although a day of Judgement is indeed coming. God allows temptation and evil on this earth, to this end:

    When satan rebelled against God, there was war in heaven. satan was defeated and cast down to the earth, which was without form and void. God won a military victory. Then fast forward to the Suffering Servant of Isaiah on the cross on Mt. Calvary. He died, the one for many, the righteous for the unrighteous. God ordained a LEGAL victory. Now we have this age of grace, wherein we do not live by the written code, but by they laws written on hearts of flesh. We see God's goodness through what has been made, and through His works on this earth, and what He does on our behalf. If we resist evil, and give God our devotion, all the host of heaven see that free will mankind chooses the goodness of God over the vileness of evil, and they honor Him for it. In this way will God win a POLITICAL victory over evil. As we encounter evil in this earth, and the terrible things that men do to each other, sickness that assails us, and yet we look to God, and declare that no matter what, we will serve Him...that is when the angels and all the host of heaven marvel at His greatness!

    Our choices are more critical than we dare believe, for by them we attest to the goodness of God, or the power of evil.

    So yes, I feel very much disheartened by those who hold the truths of God in unrighteousness for they cast their vote on the side of evil.

    • 6 votes
    #2.11 - Wed May 4, 2011 12:59 AM EDT
    Enoch-2699399

    Dear Friend Levi777: Thanks for sharing your view on the value of using free will for righteousness.

    Enoch.

    • 7 votes
    #2.12 - Wed May 4, 2011 9:14 AM EDT
    Reply
    Grisham

    Al and Enoch...that was a wonderful article. I'm at a loss for words. The concepts you both pointed out in your seperate faiths are what I believe to be universal truths. Excellently done. If I could, I would vote this article up many times over again.

    • 13 votes
    Reply#3 - Sun May 1, 2011 6:31 PM EDT
    Enoch-2699399

    Dear Friend Grisham: Vote early, vote often.

    We are all in this together. Just like the group checks at Jay's Diner. And the Pasta Pool. Its sink of swim.

    Thanks for visiting. We are deeply honored for your contributions. Here and everywhere on the Vine. It would not be the same without you.

    Enoch.

    • 11 votes
    #3.1 - Sun May 1, 2011 6:40 PM EDT
    Al-316

    Grisham, my friend, thank you for your kind words. I also voted it up.

    • 11 votes
    #3.2 - Mon May 2, 2011 12:24 AM EDT
    Spikegary

    Well said, Grisham. Many truths are universal in this life. A lot of life should be governed by what I was taught as a child to be the Golden Rule, 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you'. This includes the concept of love-show unconditional love for others and you will receive that love back from many. As there is no cost in giving this type of love, there is only the profit in whatever is returned.

    My friends, Enoch and Al, wonderful article. Thank you for taking the time to do this!

    • 8 votes
    #3.3 - Tue May 3, 2011 9:58 AM EDT
    Al-316

    Spikegary, it was a pleasure doing my part. Your comment is on the money and appreciated.

    Thank you for visiting us, my friend. Al

    • 6 votes
    #3.4 - Tue May 3, 2011 10:39 AM EDT
    Enoch-2699399

    Dear Friend Spikegary: Thanks for gracing us with your wisdom and presence.

    Enoch.

    • 7 votes
    #3.5 - Tue May 3, 2011 10:47 AM EDT
    Spikegary

    Well, presence anyway! :-) As always, a thought provoking and interesting discussion!

    • 8 votes
    #3.6 - Tue May 3, 2011 11:25 AM EDT
    Reply
    AK Luahiwa

    My Brothers in Spirit, Al & Enoch, Well done!

    The Vine is an excellent place to attest the meaning of "together" as it pertains to humanity. G-d's love isn't limited by mans interpretations or traditions. He is an all loving G-d, who created us in his image and expects us to love as he does. Love isn't discriminative or plagued by boundaries, it is mans own will that limits his own ability to see, feel, or express love toward others.

    It is my hope that Viners will read and absorb the wise words expressed in this article. This World is a better place because of people like you two, may G-d Bless you both abundantly according to his Will, Amen!

    Peace be upon you!

    AK Luahiwa

    • 14 votes
    Reply#4 - Sun May 1, 2011 7:18 PM EDT
    Enoch-2699399

    Dear Friend A.K.: Amen Selah. So be it for ever and ever.

    What a beautiful way you expressed the heart of the Scriptural message.

    Enoch.

    • 8 votes
    #4.1 - Sun May 1, 2011 8:43 PM EDT
    Al-316

    AK Luahiwa, my friend, thank you for observations. The rumor is true, we are all G-d's children, which makes us brothers and sisters.

    • 7 votes
    #4.2 - Mon May 2, 2011 12:32 AM EDT
    Reply
    etva

    My thanks Enoch and Al for the beautifully written article. I really like the combination of two traditions to show that we really aren't so different.

    I think most people try to love one another unconditionally, but it's very easy to slip into judgment without realizing it. Almost always, when we are angry, frustrated or afraid, it's because we have made a judgment about someone else. When I start to feel negative emotions, I try to stop and figure out who I'm judging and why. And then I remind myself not to judge, and my anger usually will dissipate (though perhaps not disappear entirely - LOL:)

    • 13 votes
    Reply#5 - Sun May 1, 2011 9:26 PM EDT
    Enoch-2699399

    Dear Friend Etva: You are farther along than most in this regard.

    G-d bless, Enoch.

    • 9 votes
    #5.1 - Mon May 2, 2011 12:16 AM EDT
    Al-316

    etva, I too, have my weaknesses. But after all, we are only human. Like you, I try to do the best I can. Thank you for stopping by, my friend.

    • 10 votes
    #5.2 - Mon May 2, 2011 12:35 AM EDT
    etva

    You are farther along than most in this regard.

    Thanks Enoch! It makes me feel better that you think this. My family thinks I've been contaminated by the dark side. (I'm going to tell them it happened at Jay's Diner - LOL:)

    • 8 votes
    #5.3 - Mon May 2, 2011 8:04 AM EDT
    Enoch-2699399

    Dear Friend Etva: LOL. It always boils down to Jay's Diner, doesn't it?

    Enoch.

    • 8 votes
    #5.4 - Mon May 2, 2011 9:22 AM EDT
    etva

    Everything boils down if you cook it long enough - LOL:)

    • 9 votes
    #5.5 - Mon May 2, 2011 11:51 AM EDT
    Reply
    iroquis

    Al-316 and Enoch have most eloquently and generously shared their high and refined Grace with us. They set the highest standard. Gendolkari wisely points out the Charlitans and false prophets pervert that message into judgement and exclusivity, the most vile of human weakness.

    Thank you for this messge and reminder of hope.

    • 9 votes
    Reply#6 - Mon May 2, 2011 2:55 AM EDT
    Al-316

    iroquis, thank you for your kind words my friend. It is always good when your share your wisdom.

    • 8 votes
    #6.1 - Mon May 2, 2011 3:16 AM EDT
    Enoch-2699399

    Dear Friend Iroquis: I concur with Al. Thank you for sharing your wisdom. You honor us with your presence.

    G-d bless, Enoch.

    • 7 votes
    #6.2 - Mon May 2, 2011 9:24 AM EDT
    Reply
    Autobot Prime

    Excellent, excellent article! I have often spoken of the two greatest commandments in the same way as part I. I also enjoyed part II though I have to admit I probably would have woken my dad if that was me.

    • 10 votes
    Reply#7 - Mon May 2, 2011 5:53 AM EDT
    Al-316

    Autobot Prime, thank you for stopping by. I am happy to learn that you already knew the significance of these two commandments. They are certainly the foundation on which we should all live, aren't they?

    I am sure that your dad would have forgiven your disturbing him and that he would have enjoyed his second nap more than the first.

    A Friend Request is awaiting your approval.

    • 10 votes
    #7.1 - Mon May 2, 2011 6:25 AM EDT
    Enoch-2699399

    Dear Friend Autobot Prime: The nice thing about a parable is that you can learn from it things you are not inclined to do or know before.

    Thanks for gracing us with your visit.

    G-d bless, Enoch.

    • 9 votes
    #7.2 - Mon May 2, 2011 9:27 AM EDT
    Reply
    Dr Rex Dexter 'DeX'

    The second commandment in the article, was very telling for the times in which it was uttered.

    Yah'shu'ah was quoting from a couple of "Old Testament" prophets when he spoke it. The original, if studied more directly with it's Aramaic roots, would read at the end of the quote, "...your whole heart, your whole soul, and your whole strength or more specifically, all of your substance. (I.E. With all you are and have.)

    Yah'shu'ah, knowing the mindset of the "Religious Leaders" to whom he was responding, added "mind", a fact occulted by many modern translations. The thinking of those leaders, doctrinally, was that sin must be acted out to be sin.

    Yah'shu'ah, did not agree with their doctrine. He, in fact, alluded to this factor in other passages. He also said that "..if a man looks at a woman, as to commit adultery, he has already done so in his heart...", which also flew in the face of the same teaching.

    • 13 votes
    Reply#8 - Mon May 2, 2011 6:49 AM EDT
    Al-316

    DeX, thank you for your added details. Your comments add greatly to our purpose.

    • 9 votes
    #8.1 - Mon May 2, 2011 6:57 AM EDT
    etva

    added "mind",

    Good point. I believe that our thoughts are energy, just as our actions are. Nothing goes unnoticed in the universe, precisely because all that energy has substance.

    • 9 votes
    #8.2 - Mon May 2, 2011 8:02 AM EDT
    Enoch-2699399

    Dear Dex: Thanks for sharing, and gracing us with your erudition.

    G-d bless, Enoch.

    • 7 votes
    #8.3 - Mon May 2, 2011 9:37 AM EDT
    Reply
    danny-3140462

    I would like to thank you for this lesson. Understanding these words is what gives them value.

    • 9 votes
    Reply#9 - Mon May 2, 2011 7:45 AM EDT
    Al-316

    danny, your are more than welcome. Thank you for stopping in.

    Yes, you are correct about understanding the meaning of words. We all need to be on the same page. A Friend Request is headed your way for consideration.

    • 8 votes
    #9.1 - Mon May 2, 2011 8:51 AM EDT
    Enoch-2699399

    Dear Friend Danny: The real value is in sharing ideas and working together. Thank you for your participation.

    G-d bless, Enoch.

    • 8 votes
    #9.2 - Mon May 2, 2011 9:29 AM EDT
    Reply
    Remote Viewer

    What I get from this story is that we are all in this life together. The universality of filial reverence, and of the value for honesty in our interactions is a basic part of us. The need to work together, and the desire to be true to our values, and fair to others spans and transcends things which separate us.

    Thank you for this article, Al-316 and Enoch! We are all connected to one another and to all life in the Universe through the spark of the divine that is within each of us. I firmly believe that we are more alike than we are different.

    • 12 votes
    Reply#10 - Mon May 2, 2011 8:21 AM EDT
    Al-316

    A wise old Objibwe warrior keeps reminding me that "Gakina Awiiya" (we are all related).

    Thank you for visiting us, my friend.

    • 11 votes
    #10.1 - Mon May 2, 2011 9:00 AM EDT
    Enoch-2699399

    Dear Remove Viewer: Your post, and Al's response are two examples of the universality of cooperative spirit, and shared values. Great work.

    G-d bless, Enoch.

    • 8 votes
    #10.2 - Mon May 2, 2011 9:31 AM EDT
    Reply
    Tina-293371

    Thanks for thinking of me, Enoch :)

    I believe that every religion has something of value to offer us. After all, we are all trying to get to the same place, however we envision it. It is the followers of religion that often corrupt its message.

    I do not adhere to any particular religion, but try to live by the Golden Rule: Do unto others as you would have others do unto you. Can you imagine what a different world it would be if everyone lived that way?

    • 13 votes
    Reply#11 - Mon May 2, 2011 9:55 AM EDT
    Enoch-2699399

    Dear Friend Tina: Different and better. I concur with, and am impressed by your sagacity. Thanks for sharing, and coming to visit us.

    G-d bless, Enoch.

    • 7 votes
    #11.1 - Mon May 2, 2011 10:17 AM EDT
    Reply
    Hiram-1381633

    Al-Enoch-

    What a wonderful article, very well written, and to the point. If there is no unity there is only chaos and hatred. if we all strive to understand one another instead of trying prove I ma right and you are wrong it would go a long way to improving the human condition.

    I just got back from a wonderful weekend doing my archery in the woods. One of the best things I like about this sport is that there are people from all ages, all income levels, all races and all religions that get involved. And yet we all get along , we all are courteous and helpful to each other. We share food and drink and enjoy God's creation for the weekend. I have made many lasting friendships through this and it just goes to show that we can get along and love one another if we try.

    Blessings

    H

    • 9 votes
    Reply#12 - Mon May 2, 2011 10:10 AM EDT
    Enoch-2699399

    Dear Hiram: You were doing in real time what Al and I are writing about. Great work and observations my good friend.

    G-d bless, Enoch.

    • 9 votes
    #12.1 - Mon May 2, 2011 10:19 AM EDT
    Al-316

    Hiram, my friend, thank you for telling us about your archery adventures. Respecting one another makes the difference between a pleasant activity that you want to repeat versus a terrible experience you would rather forget.

    Your comments are always a valuable contribution.

    • 8 votes
    #12.2 - Mon May 2, 2011 10:46 AM EDT
    Reply
    tzia62

    It is my belief that we all come from the same God. therefore we are brothersand sisters. Our Devine parent wants us to love one another, and live in harmony on this earth that He created for US.

    This is a wonderful article Al and Enoch. thanks!!

    • 8 votes
    Reply#13 - Mon May 2, 2011 10:38 AM EDT
    Enoch-2699399

    Dear Friend Tzia: Thanks for sharing your warmth and wisdom. You grace us with your visits.

    Now, if we can only get Jay's Diner to stop serving coffee with pits in the cup. Never really understood that one. LOL.

    Enoch.

    • 8 votes
    #13.1 - Mon May 2, 2011 10:44 AM EDT
    Al-316

    Your belief is my belief, my friend. It is such a simple concept to understand and it makes perfect sense. Challenges seem to arise when interacting with someone who has not grasped that concept yet. That is when it is most important to demonstrate your belief.

    I bet you are a great neighbor. Thank you for visiting us.

    • 7 votes
    #13.2 - Mon May 2, 2011 11:07 AM EDT
    tzia62

    Thank you Al, I try to be a good neighbor, as well a a good person. I don't know if anyone appreciates it, but I know it's the thing to do, and it brings me peace.

    • 6 votes
    #13.3 - Mon May 2, 2011 11:46 AM EDT
    tzia62

    Enoch, being that I worked at Jays Diner, all I can say is that I never unserstood it either. Nor did I understand why we were told to put salt into the sugar jar, and sugar into the salt shaker!! lol

    • 7 votes
    #13.4 - Mon May 2, 2011 11:50 AM EDT
    Enoch-2699399

    LOL. Good one. E.

    • 8 votes
    #13.5 - Mon May 2, 2011 12:16 PM EDT
    tzia62

    Thanks !!

    • 6 votes
    #13.6 - Mon May 2, 2011 1:56 PM EDT
    Reply
    Bunbury

    Thank you for taking the time to write such a good article. It makes me sad when some people seem to get their priorities mixed up and seem to miss what I've always believed to be the most important message, and that is love.

    I think this message is echoed in 1 Corinthians 13. Or, in short, Corinthians 13:13:

    "And now abide by these three: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."

    • 7 votes
    Reply#14 - Mon May 2, 2011 12:24 PM EDT
    Enoch-2699399

    Well stated. Thank you for adding to our thread. Please visit us often.

    FR invite sent.

    G-d bless, Enoch.

    • 6 votes
    #14.1 - Mon May 2, 2011 12:40 PM EDT
    Al-316

    Bunbury, you have summarized our message very well. Thank you for visiting us, my friend.

    • 6 votes
    #14.2 - Mon May 2, 2011 1:42 PM EDT
    Reply
    bobby3053155

    Thanks for the e-mail Enoch. Interesting and well written article. I especially liked the examination of the word love. Too often in this world love is of the conditional kind, even from family. I did not know the story of Dama and found it to be very interesting, covering such subjects as respect and honesty. Thanks for the article and inviting me to put in my two cents worth.

    I agree, We are all in this together.

    • 6 votes
    Reply#15 - Mon May 2, 2011 1:03 PM EDT
    Al-316

    Bobby, thank you for taking the time to visit us. Your comments reflect a wise and thoughtful mind. We appreciate your sharing. A Friend Request is being directed towards you. Al

    • 7 votes
    #15.1 - Mon May 2, 2011 1:47 PM EDT
    bobby3053155

    Thank you guys, FR humbly accepted.

    • 6 votes
    #15.2 - Mon May 2, 2011 2:32 PM EDT
    Enoch-2699399

    Dear Bobby: Thank you for honoring us with your presence, and ideas. Please don't be a stranger to our threads.

    FR invite sent.

    G-d bless, E.

    • 6 votes
    #15.3 - Mon May 2, 2011 3:03 PM EDT
    bobby3053155

    Thank you Enoch, FR gladly accepted. Thanks for having me!

    • 6 votes
    #15.4 - Mon May 2, 2011 4:50 PM EDT
    Reply
    Venator

    Great article!

    Yes we are all in this together. Once we stop caring about one another, the world just descends into chaos.

    You do not need to look hard to prove that statements about love mentioned in bible hold true.

    • 7 votes
    Reply#16 - Mon May 2, 2011 2:13 PM EDT
    Enoch-2699399

    Dear Friend Venator: We agree with you, and support you in the application of the wisdom of love. The world can be a better place. It is up to each of us alone, and all of us together to bring that about.

    G-d bless, Enoch.

    • 6 votes
    #16.1 - Mon May 2, 2011 3:05 PM EDT
    Al-316

    Venator, I am so glad you stopped by. Your comments are right on.

    Thank you for sharing. For your consideration, a friend request is soon coming your way. Al

    • 6 votes
    #16.2 - Mon May 2, 2011 3:08 PM EDT
    Venator

    Thanks Enoch

    And accepted Al. :)

    • 6 votes
    #16.3 - Mon May 2, 2011 3:22 PM EDT
    Reply
    Arch-Man

    That's the beauty of G-d's word that it leads us to righteousness. It bless us and blesses others. There are so many scriptures to bring up.

    In this life, we need to self-advocate, to work well and look out for (be our brothers keepers). Not tomorrow. For if we wait until then, we may run out of time. The time to work with each other for mutual benefit is now.

    Psalm 90:10 The years of our life are threescore and ten, or even by reason of strength fourscore; yet their span is but toil and trouble; they are soon gone, and we fly away. 11 Who considers the power of thy anger, and thy wrath according to the fear of thee? 12 So teach us to number our days that we may get a heart of wisdom.

    My Pastor always says, "There are no do overs in life."

    So let us strive to enter that straight gate that leads to life. :~)

    • 7 votes
    Reply#17 - Mon May 2, 2011 3:09 PM EDT
    Enoch-2699399

    Dear Friend Arch Man: As ever, your wisdom radiates out to us, and provides spiritual nourishment. Thanks for sharing it. I completely agree.

    G-d bless. A Shout Out to the City of Brotherly Love. Enoch.

    • 7 votes
    #17.1 - Mon May 2, 2011 3:12 PM EDT
    Al-316

    Arch-Man, my good and dear friend, I am honored that you stopped by to visit. Your words ring true. Putting off until tomorrow rarely benefits me. Opportunities vaporize, people die, and windows close.

    Thank you for such wise words. Al

    • 6 votes
    #17.2 - Mon May 2, 2011 3:18 PM EDT
    Arch-Man

    Enoch-2699399-

    A Shout Out to the City of Brotherly Love.

    Thank you! I would like to request that everyone would pray for Israel and the U.S. at this time. G-d Bless His people.

    • 6 votes
    #17.3 - Mon May 2, 2011 3:21 PM EDT
    Enoch-2699399

    Dear Friend Arch Man: Done. Thanks. E.

    • 7 votes
    #17.4 - Mon May 2, 2011 3:24 PM EDT
    Reply
    Kavika

    Enoch and Al, excellent article. I took the time to read it twice and probably will read it again. Thank you my friends for posting this and making each of us think about it.

    Gakina Awiiya (we are all related)

    Waanakiwin niijiis (peace my friends)

    • 9 votes
    Reply#18 - Mon May 2, 2011 3:23 PM EDT
    Al-316

    Kavika, your kind words mean a lot to me, niijii. It is a fact that I had to write my portion twice, that may explain why you had to read it twice. How did you know?

    Baanaapii niijii, Al

    • 9 votes
    #18.1 - Mon May 2, 2011 3:36 PM EDT
    Kavika

    Al, it's very easy for me to know since I live in a parallel universe.

    Waanakiwin niijii

    • 7 votes
    #18.2 - Mon May 2, 2011 4:35 PM EDT
    Enoch-2699399

    Dear Friend Kavika: Thanks for the great compliment. Welcome home.

    Enoch.

    • 6 votes
    #18.3 - Mon May 2, 2011 4:59 PM EDT
    Kavika

    Thank you Enoch niijii..My computer crashed on Friday and I just got a loaner today. LOL..we are in the same boat...

    Waanakiwin niijii

    • 6 votes
    #18.4 - Mon May 2, 2011 5:37 PM EDT
    Enoch-2699399

    Dear Friend Kavika: We are in the same boat for information technology. It seems to be sinking. Going d

    o

    w

    n.

    Enoch.

    • 7 votes
    #18.5 - Mon May 2, 2011 6:13 PM EDT
    screminmimi

    Enoch -

    Put on your bark suit and you will float through all your troubles, bearing I-Am-Indian along with you.....lol

    Like Kavika, I read the article twice and will read it again. It made me stop and think and feel ashamed of the way I have treated friends, family and neighbors. Often not intentionally, but carelessly, as I rushed through my self-centered life.

    Very good article.

    • 6 votes
    #18.6 - Mon May 2, 2011 6:37 PM EDT
    Kavika

    Enoch niijii, you have the advantage, your birch bark suit that makes you a human canoe..Me, I'm worried about Frankenfish..

    lol

    • 6 votes
    #18.7 - Mon May 2, 2011 7:09 PM EDT
    Enoch-2699399

    Dear Friend Screminmimi: LOL. Good one.

    Thanks for your kind and warm comments.

    We all need from time to time to give ourselves a chance to review if we are on the right path. In Hebrew, we call this Chesbon ha Nefesh (an accounting of the soul).

    We also need to be as charitable to ourselves as we need to be with others. What ever we do, we will be imperfect. We will however, always be improvable. I find that if we learn from our errors, make whole those we harm, and take steps not to repeat past errors that is quite a lot to accomplish.

    G-d bless you my dear friend. Enoch.

    • 6 votes
    #18.8 - Mon May 2, 2011 7:11 PM EDT
    Bunbury

    Sometimes it's easy to forget that we are also intended to love and have compassion for ourselves. But, even though we very rarely say it, I think that having love and compassion for ourselves is just as important as loving others. Although finding the correct balance can be difficult, it is important.

    This is partly because one of the things I hope to accomplish whenever I help someone is to impress upon them the virtue of serving your neighbor. But, if you pursue self sacrifice to the point that it makes you suffer, I think you're less likely to convince a stranger to do the same. So, it turns out that sometimes the most important thing you can do to make the world a better place is to be happy.

    • 5 votes
    #18.9 - Mon May 2, 2011 10:15 PM EDT
    Enoch-2699399

    Dear Friend Bunbury: Balance is key, I agree. Being realistic also helps. Thanks for making very sound points.

    Enoch.

    • 6 votes
    #18.10 - Mon May 2, 2011 11:22 PM EDT
    Reply
    MsAubrey

    I am along similar lines of 'Tina' (poster above) and her thoughts.

    I've studied many different religions and their messages. I take a little from each. But I reside and claim myself to the Paganistic structure that gives me the freedom to do so.

    'If it harms none, do as you will' is the Wiccan Rede that I take to heart. I don't worry about what others do unless it brings harm. If someone wants to believe in one G-d, then I respect that. I also respect those by using a capitalized G. It's funny how many don't pay attention to that. Similar to Judaism not using the o in G-d when writing or typing. I notice that and I've gotten that explanation. Although I don't always omit the o, I will for respect of the writers of this article.

    That is why Al and Enoch are a part of my friends here on the 'Vine. They have the same respect for me and my thoughts, beliefs, and ideas as I do theirs. I just wish others could do the same.

    • 8 votes
    Reply#19 - Mon May 2, 2011 3:33 PM EDT
    Al-316

    MsAubrey, your kind words are much appreciated, my friend. Your comments capture the spirit of our message. Sharing your views helps us all. Thank you for visiting.

    • 8 votes
    #19.1 - Mon May 2, 2011 3:55 PM EDT
    MsAubrey

    Thanks! : )

    I just don't understand people (in general) sometimes. In the way that, why would it matter to Mr./Mrs. X if I believe in one G-d (their G-d) or have 5 of my own, as long as I'm a good person, treat others with respect, pay my dues, love my family, friends, and neighbors, and stick up for those people and myself if necessary? And I say 'stick up' for those people because sometimes you must defend yourself from those that intend harm. That, sadly is a reality. I say that if I accept 'your' G-d, then while you may not believe in mine, accept that my view is different... Just like you and Enoch do.

    I actually have very wonderful neighbors/friends that are Polish-Catholic and completely feel as I do. I LOVE the Catholic church down the street from where I live and really enjoy conversations with Father Ptak. He's a great (and spiritual) man. And the respect he gave me when I wanted to have a Mass for my grandmother (for her) was completely refreshing. That is what my grandmother wanted. And I made sure it happened. I've never seen a more beautiful church in our area.

    • 6 votes
    #19.2 - Mon May 2, 2011 4:02 PM EDT
    Enoch-2699399

    Dear Friend MsAubrey: I agree with all your points here. We all get farther in life together than alone. And the trip is so much more pleasant.

    Thanks for sharing your wisdom. It is refreshing and uplifting. The interesting thing in life about respect is that we all tend to get it back in direct proportion to giving it out.

    Enoch.

    • 7 votes
    #19.3 - Mon May 2, 2011 5:04 PM EDT
    Al-316

    MsAubrey, my friend Enoch has expressed my feelings as well as his own. Thank you for elaborating, my friend. It helps us all to understand. Al

    • 7 votes
    #19.4 - Mon May 2, 2011 6:08 PM EDT
    Reply
    bellingham-1004062

    Enoch and Al,

    I definitely see us as all in it together.

    Here is the way I see it as an athiest. I will try not to be to negative about people's faith but it is difficult not to offend when you are coming from a non-believer's point of view.

    We hope as a world community that we can progress the world forward in a positive direction. Maybe we take some steps back once in a while but over time we hope the direction is positive. I think it was Einstein who said that when he came up with the theory of relativity he was standing on the shoulders of a lot of great people.

    Maybe we can take some of the religous icons and see it this way. For me I don't believe that Jesus was the son of God. I believe he must have been a great leader. I love the story of the Good Samaritan. I also like the line about it being more difficult for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven (I like to substitute "to be happy" for the "kingdom of heaven") than it is for a camel to pass through the Eye of the Needle (actual place I believe).

    The one thing that bothers me about Christianity is heaven. There are too many people who focused on the afterlife and who will be there rather than trying to make the most of this present life. The problem is about power. I see power as being a weapon to control masses and being opposed to the "we are all in it together" principal. Leadership and power are too different things. Leadership is about bringing people together with a common vision. If the vision does not serve all people then it is a vision of power and not a vision of community. Power is about trying to get the people to do what the people in power want. It is not trying to make things better.

    Having said all this I think we have to choose the best from our leaders us and stand on their shoulders to move our communities forward. In the end we are looking to improve the world community because it will make a better future for our children.

    • 8 votes
    Reply#20 - Mon May 2, 2011 3:54 PM EDT
    Al-316

    Bellingham, my friend. You bring to us some very valid criticisms.

    In my short life time (68 in June) I have had many experiences, as I am sure you have as well. The sum total of those experiences have shaped me into what I am today. I have three brothers who for the most part had the same experiences, but when they were at a different age. We were all born within a five year time period. Although we are similar in many regards, there are very definite differences.

    I am the oldest brother. I was 6 when our dad died and 13 when our mom died. As a consequence we lived an exciting life. Some people said we were abused, others said we were neglected, every one said we were poor. All things considered, I would say that we had an average family situation. Not really bad, but not really good either. But we had the most important thing a family needs. We had love for each other.

    If you were to multiply my family many times over, I think you would see the population of the world. All similar, but different. All shaped by their individual experiences. And yet I see us all as brothers and sisters.

    Neither Enoch nor I are trying to win religious converts. We are not even competing. I respect Enoch for being stead fast in his faith as he respects me and as we both respect you for being stead fast in your beliefs.

    Our joint message here is that we are all just one incredibly large faimily. We just did not all grow up under the same roof or get shaped in the same way.

    Never the less, if we all gave a little more respect, a little more kindness, and a little more love to each other, we would all benefit.

    Thank you for visiting us, sharing your views, and putting up with my rambling ways, my friend.

    Peace Al

    • 10 votes
    #20.1 - Mon May 2, 2011 5:02 PM EDT
    Enoch-2699399

    Dear Friend Bellingham: Making the world better for our children is as universal and strong a motivator to work together as I can imagine. If we don't do the best we can to leave the world a better place for them,. we have not been living correctly.

    We are honored by your visit, and profit from your wisdom. Thanks for sharing it.

    Enoch.

    • 7 votes
    #20.2 - Mon May 2, 2011 5:11 PM EDT
    Reply
    iroquis

    MsAubrey and Bellingham, you both point out the problem with organized religion. Being belief based there is no room for tolerance, if you do not believe as I do, you are not only condemned, you are an enemy and must be destroyed. Religious organizations exist only for power control of people, they are social and political, not spiritual.

    People seem to recognize that there is something "more" than us individually, be it G-d, Gaea, Jove, or the collective "us". If there is a god, he/she/it certainly would have nothing to do with any preacher I have ever heard of. If god has something to say, no translator will be necessary. In the mean time, the more tolerant the rest of us can become, the more generous, the more thoughful, the world will be a much better place for all of us.

    • 7 votes
    Reply#21 - Mon May 2, 2011 4:30 PM EDT
    bellingham-1004062

    So I am wondering how you feel about your own spiritual traditions?

    • 5 votes
    #21.1 - Mon May 2, 2011 4:45 PM EDT
    iroquis

    Bellingham, I seem to lack the capacity and vocabulary for "spriitual" matters. I believe that organized religion is the biggest scourge humanity faces. Contained within my own skin, resisting the consequent egocentricism is a constant effort, community is more important. Perhaps "Secular Humanism" would be an applicable term. You easily and confidently proclaim your atheism, my declaration of atheism is quiet, humble, and not confident. I can respect the ethics of Dama, I can subscribe to the ethos of love in all it's forms. I see none of these virtues in any religious figure.

    • 6 votes
    #21.2 - Mon May 2, 2011 5:18 PM EDT
    Enoch-2699399

    Dear Friend Iroquis: I sense your frustration. Religion can be as much a force for evil as good. It all depends on how it is used.

    As a Rabbi, and a Chaplain, I spend a lot of time visiting the sick, helping the dying leave this life in peace and dignity, helping the ones left behind to be able to move on with less pain, burying the dead, etc. I am always available to anyone. It matters not to me what they do or do not believe. If they want me there, I will be there for them, in the way they want me to be there for them.

    I feel that to the believer, not respecting others, and failing to be there when and as needed is the same as not being true to what we hold dear.

    We can all learn to be more accepting and tolerant of others, and their views and ways. It is not only a good idea. It is necessary for our survival, progress as a species, and for internal consistency whatever we hold dear.

    Thanks for your visit. Please don't be a stranger to our threads. You are always most welcome.

    Enoch.

    • 6 votes
    #21.3 - Mon May 2, 2011 5:19 PM EDT
    iroquis

    My friend Enoch, from your writing and history, it is clear to me that you are the highest caliber of human being, certainly everyone you touch has their life enriched. What effort has more nobility than easing pain and calming distress? It is only right, in fact, unavoidable, that you draw your wisdom from traditions and beliefs that have guided your life. Do you revile those who cannot maintain your standards? Of course not. Do you condemn "non-believers?" Never. Do you have ulterior motives? I would doubt it. I am sure you function as a minister, a counselor, a guide, a refllective surface and filter for the understanding needs of the afflicted. I bow to you sir.

    The problem with organized religion is that it is populated by human beings, the institutional failure is guaranteed. They are bureaucratic structures, allowing the basest motivations, they allow no dissent, they are autocratic and absolute, the are rigid and change resistant. Their regression is so powerful that the future is in danger. While your virtues and efforts are a light of hope, most religions spend their potential maintaining darkness and fear.

    • 6 votes
    #21.4 - Mon May 2, 2011 6:24 PM EDT
    Enoch-2699399

    Dear Friend Iroquis: If I have anything going for me, it is because I listen closely to everyone. Mostly closely do I listen to those who see things differently than do I. They may very well be correct. I am not perfect. I have a family that can document that all day long.

    I am not ready to give up on institutionalized religion just yet. But that is me. I am sensitive to each and every one of the good and valid points you have raised. My approach is to do the best I can, and hope to set an example to be followed, when merited.

    We need fresh eyes like yours to help us improve what we are doing. You are correct. We are people trying to do what we can, in the context of practical limitations and daily challenges. That said, we are indebted to you for helping us focus on where we need to be better at it.

    Thanks. Peace and all the good things this life has to offer. Your friend, Enoch.

    • 8 votes
    #21.5 - Mon May 2, 2011 7:18 PM EDT
    Al-316

    Iroquis, my friend. I am at a loss for any helpful words. Just words of understanding. I am hearing of more and more people dropping out of organized churches and having worship services in private homes because of the same issues you raise.

    I, too, recognise and am disillusioned by the issues you mention, but can only suggest that you follow your own heart.

    Thank you for visiting us and airing your valid concerns. Al

    • 7 votes
    #21.6 - Mon May 2, 2011 8:39 PM EDT
    bellingham-1004062

    Iroquis,

    I wasn't trying to put you on the spot. My purpose is to try to explore for myself.

    I am probably not a very good athiest. I don't believe that we can prove or disprove God -- that is more of an agnostic -- absense of knowledge. I think it is invalid assume God exists in order to explain things that we don't understand.

    I grew up in the Christian church. I ask myself now that I am a non-believer does that make me less spiritual. I guess I have come to the conclusion that faith is not a requirement for being spiritual. You sound like a spiritual person in your own terms.

    Here is my my current feelings about spiritualism. The spirit is the complete culmination of the physical, emotional and intellectual. When all of the attributes are present, then one can experience a heightened spiritual self. My best explanation is when I am running through the woods in the mountains after several miles and I experience a runners high. At that point I am physically strong, my mind is sharp and I am happy. Maybe this concept is far out there but I do believe we can equate spirit with good character.

    Other thoughts:

    Some people assume that an athiest believes in nothing and therefore do not answer to any kind of morality. This does not have to be true. We can believe in nothing or we can believe in everything. I choose the latter. Believing in everything assumes that the Universe is a living being. We know this is true because the Universe is continually changing as things are born and die. If you died tomorrow it is significant because the Universe will be different than it is today. There is no need for God or anything supernatural in this definition.

    I think it has been mentioned that the struggle for freedom is important that is why we are all in this together. This is actually a concept that can be found in early Christianity. I think this goes hand in hand with the idea of seeking within oneself for truth or "follow your own heart" as Al put it. We cannot seek truth within ourselves if we are oppressed.

    Enoch and Al, I hope haven't taken this too far off topic but I find it interesting.

    • 6 votes
    #21.7 - Tue May 3, 2011 1:49 AM EDT
    iroquis

    bellingham, I presumed your question was honest, and tried to answer. I doubt the human cranium has the capacity to fully grasp G-d. As we have created him as an explanation for things we have not the answers he/she has served us well. As we have created hiim as a control mechanism, he/she has served humanity very poorly. The very earliest Christians were committed Jews. They were the disenfranchised, the antisocial, the criminal. Their "religion" had few rules and few leaders, it was more a community of the socially unacceptable, a mutual support society. That tradition continued for hundreds of years with the Monkish tradition in Ireland, Scotland and Northern Europe. With the fall of Rome the Catholic Church became the only real authority left in Europe, They collected taxes, acquired vast land holdings, arbritrated conflict, made and destroyed empires. As they became governmental, administrative, dictatorial, they lost any spiritual or ethical authority and the other Christian sects arose.

    Spirituality is a distinct deficiency in my life, I enjoyed and respect your description. Ethics are important, mine begin with "do unto others..." as a base line. Having been very lucky in most realms of life brings with it a larger obligation, my own focus, frustrating as it is, goes to economic justice and environmental preservation. Ethically, Liberterian predation is something we cannot abide, Corporatism is unacceptable, legislating "social issues" cannot be tolerated. If we are to survive as a country, as a species, as a part of the world tolerance (passive) and love (active) are characteristics we must nurture.

    • 3 votes
    #21.8 - Tue May 3, 2011 3:55 AM EDT
    Enoch-2699399

    Dear Friends Bellingham and Iroquis: I am proud to call you both my friends. You are working together, sharing, being honest, and grappling with great questions and issues.

    Honest people will have honest disagreements. People of good will will not always see things in the same light. But they will work in an atmosphere of mutual respect and warmth to get at the truth they pursue.

    This is what I see in your interchange. This is what Al and I wrote about in our joint venture article.

    In my tradition, there is a song in Hebrew that goes this way.

    Henei mah tov, u'mah nayim. shevit achim gam yachad. That means, Behold, how good and how nice it is, to sit together as brothers. This is what I see here. It is impressive.

    Thank you for your contributions. You are both always most warmly welcomed in threads Al and I, collectively or individually write.

    Enoch.

    • 9 votes
    #21.9 - Tue May 3, 2011 10:00 AM EDT
    Bunbury

    @Iroquis

    my own focus, frustrating as it is, goes to economic justice and environmental preservation. Ethically, Liberterian predation is something we cannot abide, Corporatism is unacceptable, legislating "social issues" cannot be tolerated.

    I hate to nitpick, but wherever the government seeks to promote social or economic justice or prevent corporatism, it will do so by "legislating social issues." I don't see any problem with legislating social issues. I object when legislation promotes social or economic injustice or promotes discrimination, bigotry or hate or otherwise does more harm to society than good. So, what we should oppose is bad legislation of social issues.

    As Enoch wisely points out, people of good will may not always agree. So, we should have vigorous debate on what constitutes "good social legislation" in an atmosphere of mutual respect. The good news is, we're half way there. I don't think anyone would argue that we're lacking "rigorous debate" these days. Now all we need to work on is the atmosphere of mutual respect.

    • 9 votes
    #21.10 - Tue May 3, 2011 12:30 PM EDT
    Enoch-2699399

    Dear Friend Bunbury: Great points, Well stated.

    Enoch.

    • 7 votes
    #21.11 - Tue May 3, 2011 2:30 PM EDT
    Reply
    Darrah, Greenville, SC

    Thank you for your inspiring article, Al and Enoch. I enjoy the positive feelings you send out into the universe and here as well. Both of you are great representations of spirituality. It's good to see it even if you can't literally see it. It certainly stimulates the third eye, if you will.

    I have Al on my friends list so I'm coming after you, Enoch. I hope you'll accept. :-)

    Thank you again. I'm smiling from ear to ear.

    • 7 votes
    Reply#22 - Mon May 2, 2011 9:09 PM EDT
    Al-316

    Darrah, my friend, it is so good to see you here. I am glad you enjoyed our message.

    If I had known you were coming I would have baked a cake. lol Al

    PS Your new Avatar is cool.

    • 6 votes
    #22.1 - Mon May 2, 2011 9:31 PM EDT
    Darrah, Greenville, SC

    As far as the cake, it's the thought that counts, Al. Well...a small piece would be nice. :-)

    I saw Enoch's comments in white and and yours in blue. I keep forgetting that the author's are in white even if they're a friend. I forgot that Enoch was already my friend. How embarrassing. But I know he doesn't mind.

    I found the avatar on an old CD that had songs from the 60's. I'd like to think it's a good representation of who I am or who I'm strivng to be. At one time, I thought maybe I was born in the wrong generation, that I should have been born in the days of the hippies and flower children. Maybe we're coming around to that again. A lot of changes are taking place and you either get on the peace train or you don't. Sorry...there I go again.

    Another smile on my face.

    Thanks very much, Al!

    A song for the two of you-- and everybody.

    Melanie --Candles in the Rain (Lay Down)

    • 7 votes
    #22.2 - Mon May 2, 2011 10:19 PM EDT
    Enoch-2699399

    Dear Friend Darrah: I am honored to continue to be your friend.

    You did yourself proud, and made us happy today. Please do be a regular at our threads. We welcome you openly.

    Enoch.

    • 7 votes
    #22.3 - Mon May 2, 2011 11:26 PM EDT
    Al-316

    Darrah, thanks for the memories. "Lay Down" brings them back. :) Al

    • 7 votes
    #22.4 - Tue May 3, 2011 12:55 AM EDT
    Darrah, Greenville, SC

    Thank you both and I look forward to reading more. I'll put you on my watchlist so I won't miss anything.

    Have a great day!

    • 7 votes
    #22.5 - Tue May 3, 2011 10:58 AM EDT
    Enoch-2699399

    Dear Friend Darrah: Thanks. You are on my watchlist.

    Enoch.

    • 7 votes
    #22.6 - Tue May 3, 2011 2:32 PM EDT
    Darrah, Greenville, SC

    Enoch,

    You may want to overlook most of what I seed and occasionally write. It's not always nice. :-)

    • 7 votes
    #22.7 - Tue May 3, 2011 3:42 PM EDT
    Enoch-2699399

    I enjoy your articles. Keep them coming. E.

    • 7 votes
    #22.8 - Tue May 3, 2011 3:48 PM EDT
    Reply
    G. H.

    Dear friend Enoch and friend Al, I feel warmed by two very different people combining to make one excellent article! Thank you so very much for sharing your feelings with us. That is a very difficult thing to do sometimes.

    For myself, I give thanks each and every day that we as Creator's children were given FREE WILL. By that, I mean, we are free to choose the sort of person we want to be. My childhood wasn't a very pleasant one. Growing up very poor and in the middle of 7 children, we all had very little. I had much of almost every kind of abuse one can imagine. My little brain however, which is definitely driven by part of my spirit, refused to believe there was nothing else in life to look forward to. Though I have been in and studied various religious beliefs, the ones I live by are those of the Golden Rule. I try each and every day to live my life in joy and love shared with others. I'm a "hugger" and a "listener". All of our bad feelings should be discussed with those we trust, not used as ammunition. I do believe there are no greater gifts than love and compassion, which needs to include forgiveness. My parents and others who perpetrated the abuse are no longer with me, and I really HAVE questioned at times how it is that I don't hate. It is by Creator's great gift, LOVE, where in it can be balanced out by NOT continuing to abuse others.

    Not to sound ego-centric, but I picture myself, at times, as a little pebble thrown into a pond. It makes little or no splash, but the ripples that continue outward go a long way before fading. Those I love, will love others, and those will love others and by grace will continue on. Peace and Blessings to you both.

    • 7 votes
    Reply#23 - Mon May 2, 2011 10:04 PM EDT
    Enoch-2699399

    Dear Friend G.H.: Your post epitomizes what is meant by Grace. That you could live through abuse, and find it within yourself to muster the strength to forgive, and the courage to overcome the cycle of abuse is awesome!

    I am so very proud to know a person of your high calibre.

    G-d continue to smile and bless, Enoch.

    • 6 votes
    #23.1 - Mon May 2, 2011 11:30 PM EDT
    G. H.

    Enoch, coming from one of YOUR calibre, that is a high complement indeed. Thank you Friend.:-) Blessings always

    • 6 votes
    #23.2 - Tue May 3, 2011 12:21 AM EDT
    Al-316

    G. H. your ripples have reached my shore. The story of you, is sad on one hand and also uplifting at the same time. As your story illustrates, we can only control what we do and how we respond. We cannot control or take responsibility for others. We all have the same Free Will. That is what makes life so wonderful and tragic simultaneously. Love helps to remove the sharp edges of life.

    Thank you, my friend, for visiting us and may G-d continue to bless you. Al

    • 6 votes
    #23.3 - Tue May 3, 2011 1:09 AM EDT
    G. H.

    Thank you, Al. I feel I am a very blessed person indeed! I have four wonderful Children, three of whom are married to warm and loving partners, 6 Grandchildren, and another due in June. All of us are "lap-sitters" and huggers, a large and loving family. I have also lost one brother and one sister, who couldn't seem to make the past, be the past. But the rest of us keep in good contact. My life is incredibly blessed. I wish the same for you and yours. Peace and blessings! :-)

    • 6 votes
    #23.4 - Tue May 3, 2011 11:53 PM EDT
    Al-316

    G. H., I am glad you mentioned that you consider your life is incredibly blessed.

    When I hear a comment such as yours, I somehow share in your blessing. I cannot explain why that is. Maybe it just reinforces in my heart that G-d loves us all.

    I too feel incredibly blessed which causes me to feel sometimes that someone, somewhere may be getting short changed. Your comment reminds that G-d is incredibly kind to all of us, all of the time.

    Thank you for returning. Al

    • 5 votes
    #23.5 - Wed May 4, 2011 12:07 AM EDT
    Enoch-2699399

    Dear Friend G.H.: You are indeed blessed. And deservedly so. Your life experience reminds me of a tale of the Chassidic Masters.

    One day some Congregants went to their Rebbe (Grand Rabbi) with a question. They wanted to know why when they were good members of the Congregation and community, law abiding upstanding citizens, that there are people who are far less accomplished at doing good over evil, yet seem to prosper. Why was their life not better off for their efforts?

    The Rebbe asked them to take a walk with him. The Rebbe explained that he is not involved in worldly goods and services, so he is not qualified to address matters involving them. What he can do is bring them to someone who has a better insight into such things.

    The group walked over the railroad tracks to a slum area. Living in squalor, an old poor man in tattered rags, who eats maybe once every other day, has no visible means of support, and is cut off from their own community, due to extreme hardship and poverty resulting in lack a transportation. The Rebbe knocks on the door, and the old poor man appears. He invites them in for cups of warmed water. He hasn't the money even for fuel to boil the water, no less coffee, tea and sugar.

    The Rebbe explains the question posed to him by his Congregants. The Rebbe, who frequently visits the man to bring him food, medicine, clothing and winter fuel asks the old man to share his views on why the righteous do not always receive their rewards here and now. The Rebbe explains that he is asking him this, as he knows the poor man to be a gentle, righteous soul.

    The poor old man thinks long and hard. Then he looks at the Congregants, and tells them this. I am not in a position to give you an answer. I have what I need in this life. Actually more than what I need. Probably more than such as I deserve. I have my good friend The Rebbe. He brings me the creature comforts that I need to survive. He brings me the words of the Holy Torah. That is what I need to live. I am so abundantly blessed, I don't know from personal experience how to answer your question.

    In his case, as in yours, you both succeed in life by concentrating on what you have, and doing the best you can with it. There is no better format for a life well lived than that. Not to obsess over what is wrong and what you lack. Rather to celebrate what you have, and make immediate engagement of it for the good.

    May G-d continue to bless you and yours. Enoch.

    • 6 votes
    #23.6 - Wed May 4, 2011 9:31 AM EDT
    Al-316

    Enoch, your tale contains a basic truth which I think should join the classic nursery rhymes which are told to children in their formative years. Excellent comment, my friend. Al

    • 5 votes
    #23.7 - Wed May 4, 2011 10:00 AM EDT
    Enoch-2699399

    Dear Friend and Treasured Writing Partner: Thanks.

    Enoch.

    • 5 votes
    #23.8 - Wed May 4, 2011 11:04 AM EDT
    Reply
    DocPhil

    Al and my dear friend Enoch...... Oh if organized religion could be as wise and accepting as both of you. You share a view of the world and of mankind that is what the essence of what the religious / spiritual experience should be. We are all of one cloth.....the human cloth.....No matter what our world view, our religion [or lack of same], our skin shade, our nationality, we are a family. Unfortunately, we seem to have a hard time accepting that as a species.

    I was born in the Jewish tradition, was bar mitzvah, and even considered the Rabbinate at one time in my youth. I studied the religious texts and the texts of other religions, and the more I studied, the less I believed that there is anything beyond what we have here. I think that the reason for my move away from faith was the hypocrisy that I saw in religion all around me. Orthodox Jews were sure that Reform Jews didn't belong to the tribe. Christian fundamentalists didn't believe that anyone else could be received in their perception of a kingdom of heaven. Many Catholics believed that Protestants were heretics and Jews were Christ killers. Religion had a nasty undercurrent of more hatred than love.

    When I spoke to Rabbis, Priests, and Ministers, I heard much of the same exclusionary rhetoric. Finally I decided that none of these religious traditions could be true if their supposedly most pious adherents could be so absolutist. If clergy could be accepted who had negative views of their fellow man or could preach a subtext of hatred or exclusion, religion had no meaning.

    As I got older, not only did it not get better, it got worse. We moved beyond clergy who preached false truths to denominations that became overtly supremacist, others that became prosperity based, and yet others who became mirror images of the terrorists they so vehemently denounced.

    Religion should preach love among all people. If there is a G-d, he/she would never care how people came to him/her. All religions or no religion would be equal as long as they followed Hillel's plaint. Both of you are true menschen (human beings) who represent the best in what religion should espouse. Keep writing, you inspire me with your words and wisdom.

    • 7 votes
    Reply#24 - Mon May 2, 2011 10:11 PM EDT
    Enoch-2699399

    Dear Friend DocPhil: Please do continue to come to our threads. We need your input. We do not deny any of the things that upset you. They upset us as well.

    Al you and I all believe we are of one human family. No one more or less than the other. We all believe that we should be judged on what we do, not where we belong. We belong helping and being helped by each other. We must live our life on our terms. We must find ways to get along. We are in this together.

    Let's all agree that we can and should bring out the best in each other. Work together for the common good. Respect differences, and each other. Find similarities and build.

    We thank you for your visit. You are always most welcomed in our threads.

    Your friend, Enoch.

    • 8 votes
    #24.1 - Mon May 2, 2011 11:38 PM EDT
    Al-316

    DocPhil, your comments contains the conclusions a lot of people share. I agree that there is much in organized religion which seems to have drifted away from its original foundations.

    What caused the drifting? Probably many different factors occurring over a long period of time. But the result is seems to be a growing air of unjustified superiority. I can appreciate having an air of confidence because we should all feel personal confidence in what we do and believe. I have difficulty with the superior attitude when we are all brothers and sisters.

    Thank you for stopping by and sharing your thoughtful comments. You will find a friend request waiting for your soon. Al

    • 8 votes
    #24.2 - Tue May 3, 2011 2:05 AM EDT
    Reply
    SuperSaiyan

    Great article, Enoch-2699399.

    • 7 votes
    Reply#25 - Mon May 2, 2011 10:35 PM EDT
    Enoch-2699399

    Dear Friend Super Saiyan: On behalf of my valued and esteemed writing partner Al-316 and myself we are most happy you visited us. Thank you for your praise. It means a great deal to us.

    Your good friend, Enoch.

    • 8 votes
    #25.1 - Mon May 2, 2011 11:39 PM EDT
    Reply
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