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ENOCH-2699399

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Lives well by G-d's Laws
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Value of and Methods for Atonement. By Hiram and Enoch

Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:25 PM EDT
religion, jesus, christianity, judaism, atonement, g-d
By Enoch-2699399
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Imperfect, we all err and can all improve. In this article our good friend Hiram will present a Christian view on atonement. I will present a Jewish view. We welcome and encourage you to present the view of your religion, philosophy, heritage, culture and your personal opinions and thoughts on atonement.

HIRAM: Here is what I came up with. I thank my good friend Enoch for the opportunity to share our thoughts and culture in this joint article.

Happy is the man who finds wisdom, and who gains understanding (Proverbs 3:13). When I need to find a definition for a word the first place I go is to Noah Webster's original dictionary of 1828. It is free of the political correctness. Many times it gets right to the point. Atonement is defined as satisfaction or reparation made by giving an equivalent for an injury, or by doing or suffering that which is received in satisfaction for an offense or injury.

On the surface that can sound pretty brutal, and through out our history has been cause for brutality between nation and people. Yet if we look beneath the surface there is a value to atonement.

In Christian theology and doctrine there is a definitive value in atonement. A value which applied to all cultures and beliefs is this, according to Noah. When a man is guilty of any vice the best atonement he can make is to warn others not to fall into the like. This is something that strikes me as very profound. How many times do we teach our children not to commit the same mistakes in life that haunted us? Profound in that we can use our own missteps and faults to guide others back onto the right path. No matter what you believe or where you put your faith this is a form of atonement that can benefit us and all around us.

Taking what we know and admitting our transgressions to others can be hard to do. By doing so, we give others the chance not to repeat our mistakes. We give them the value of our experience so they can avoid the same consequences. From a perspective of Christian and doctrine has many benefits. From the beginning man was created to have a relationship with our Creator. What happened when sin entered the world is that these transgressions separated us from G-d. They built a wall between G-d and man.

Being a Holy G-d he cannot look upon sin or be in it's presence, Atonement is needed to free us of the sin which allows us to re-establish that original relationship. Atonement was first made in the form of animal sacrifice. A pure unblemished animal would be sacrificed to pay for our sin. This was the practice for thousands of years. Then G-d sent His only begotten Son to pay the final atonement for sin upon the Cross. Whoever believes in Him shall be justified.

So we may ask what the value of this atonement is? First, and most important to me as a Christian is that atonement for my sin means I can once again have a relationship with my Creator G-d. Because of the atonement of Christ I have been adopted into the family of G-d. With this atonement nothing can ever separate me from G-d.

For I am persuaded that neither death or life; angels or principalities, powers, present events and things to come; height. depth or any other created thing can separate us from the love of G-d which is in Christ Jesus our Lord (Romans 8 38-39). In that relationship can be found peace, joy and contentment. We were created to have that relationship and it is only through atonement that it can be reestablished. This same atonement can be carried into our personal lives. How many times have we wronged someone close to us and through our own stubbornness refused to atone? How has that relationship suffered?

To atone means to swallow our pride, and remove the barriers our sins built to separate us. Whether it be with our G-d, our family, or friends the inability to atone will keep us apart needlessly.

The true and most wonderful value of atonement is a restored relationship and the peace it brings. Peace and blessings, HIRAM.

 

ENOCH: In Pre-Biblical through Biblical times in the Middle East many cultures had a place for atonement in their theologies. There is an Arabic word for atonement which means to cover sin. The Assyrian word for atonement is Kapparu. It is the closest to the Hebrew word Kippur in both root stem, and meaning. The Assyrians defined atonement as purging away sin.

In Hebrew, and in the Jewish tradition Kippur, atonement means to reconcile and restore the inward sense of a close relationship to G-d. We distance ourselves from G-d through acts of sin, evil desire, or constant brooding over sinful things. Salvation is oneness with G-d. Sin separates us from G-d. It distances us from the salvation we crave. How do we atone for our errors? The following is an eight point plan.

1. Allocute our guilt.

2. Confess our sins.

3. Plead for forgiveness.

4. Make whole those we harmed in whatever ways we practically can. 

5. Create a plan to prevent the sins and errors from reoccuring. Build in tracking mechanisms to monitor results.

6. Implement the plan.

7. Periodically audit the tracking to see if the plan is working.

8. Adjust the plan as necessary to prevent sin and error from returning.

When will G-d accept our atonement? Anytime!

From whom will G-d accept atonement? Anyone, without exception!

Where can we atone? Anywhere!

Why does G-d want us to atone? Because G-d doesn't want barriers between Himself and us any more than do we!

Our souls are given to us in a pristine state. The evils of the world corrupt us. When we choose of our own accord to turn away from corrupting influences, and restore our souls to purity this indeed pleases G-d, makes us feel better, and is better for all close to us.

Pitchuli, Shaare Tzeddek. Open the gates of righteousness. Unstain your souls of sin. Break down any barriers standing between yourself and G-d. There is no feeling like it. ENOCH.      

 

 

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  • Public Discussion (150)
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Enoch-2699399

We welcome and encourage you to positively state why you think atonement is of value, and how best to achieve it. Please share the wisdom of your religion, philosophy, culture, heritage, and original thoughts, opinions and beliefs.

Kindly stay on point. This is an article about atonement. It is not about whether you think what others is right or wrong. Simply contribute your wisdom in a positive and respectful manner.

Derailment, trolling, disrespect for others and what they hold dear, going off point and just cause for post deletion. It is also a sign that atonement would be in order. The COH has more than two letters. Lets give it the respect a three letter acronym deserves.

On point posts are good for a free after dinner dessert of Atonemints at Jays Diner.

Hiram and Enoch, feasting on Parah Adumah (sacrificial Red Heifer) for two at Jays.

  • 12 votes
#1 - Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:37 PM EDT
rochart

Hiram and Enoch, feasting on Parah Adumah (sacrificial Red Heifer) for two at Jays.

Here's hoping "Jays" does not owe you amends after your feast. ;^)

  • 11 votes
#1.1 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 12:05 AM EDT
Enoch-2699399

I wish it were not so, but Jay has much for which to atone.

Ever had the Goulash? Its made with real goo.

E.

  • 13 votes
#1.2 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 12:08 AM EDT
rochart

Mostly, I cook for myself and wife, it tastes better and is healthier.

  • 10 votes
#1.3 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 12:25 AM EDT
js-445607

Wonderful presentation Hiram and Enoch. Atonement means just as you both described in my opinion. We confess our transgressions without attempting to assign blame for our mistakes and shortcomings instead taking full responsibility for our acts. In doing this we have less of a chance in repeating the mistake.

I subscribe to the philosophy that we must be true to ourselves given the gifts bestowed upon us at birth. This allows us to learn from others and be open to listening to other's offerings and lessons. Opening the self to all is a very precious gift we give ourselves that we can pass to others.

  • 9 votes
#1.4 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 12:34 AM EDT
Hiram-1381633

Thank you friend Enoch for the invitation to share in this article,it was a blessing. Unfortunately I cannot say the same for the food at Jay's.

Peace

( looking for my tums)

H

  • 9 votes
#1.5 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 12:35 AM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear Friend J.S.: I concur. I am grateful for your insights into the nature of atonement, and its value.

As ever, an honor and pleasure to see you here.

E.

  • 9 votes
#1.6 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 12:39 AM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear Friend Hiram: It is my honor to write with you. A most satisfying experience.

I did sacrifice my digestive tract at the grill at Jays. The fatted calf was clearly not a fan of the South Beach diet.

E.

  • 9 votes
#1.7 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 12:41 AM EDT
js-445607

Sometimes gut rot is so worth the reward for indulging in Jay's fabulous fare.

  • 8 votes
#1.8 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 1:44 AM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Urrrp. Agreed.

E.

  • 6 votes
#1.9 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 8:29 AM EDT
IndependentAmerican2892850

Thank you, Hiram and Enoch for this insightful and non-judgmental article on atonement. My lovely wife is Jewish (I was raised Christian) and she informed me upon our meeting about the meaning of Yom Kippur.

It is a concept that I believe the whole world could benefit from regardless of religious belief or lack thereof. To hold onto guilt or grudges is not productive or healthy. Guilt eats away at our self-esteem and our confidence.

The great challenge for me in achieving atonement is coming to grips with making amends to someone who may not otherwise have known that they were wronged by me. I fear causing more damage and doubt. I try to rise above the selfish motive of lightening my burden of guilt and I long to believe that with love and respect one may find it in their heart to trust and accept me for having made amends. It is difficult, the all-consuming fear of loss and rejection paralyzes me.

Everyday I am reminded how far from perfection I am, and it can be overwhelming to think that no matter my efforts I will still fall short of being the human I long to be. I am no longer religious, but I still have a feeling deep within that there is a connection between myself and all others.

I am always awed by the world around me, and though I grieve for the inhumanity, I rejoice and feel hope for the simple selfless acts of kindness that occur. My challenge to myself is to focus on the good rather than the evil. I may have lost my faith in the dogma instilled during my upbringing, but I still feel the need to believe in something greater than myself, even if it is only the triumph of the human spirit. I can no longer profess to know or understand the will of G-d, or even to believe in the existence of the G-d of my childhood teachings.

Suffice it to say that I believe in a force that transcends everything we as humans have discovered and detected and it is something infinite which my finite mind cannot grasp. Therefor, I have abandoned trying to understand the infinite and have embraced trying to understand myself. Should G-d be the omniscient and omnipotent being of the teachings I was raised by, then I am a product of that Being and therefor I am acting as I was created to. I cannot accept predestination and free-will as being mutually co-existent, my mind just doesn't accept such logical fallacies.

I will try to be the best I can be, but I know that even in that, I fall short. May you both be Blessed. I feel you already have been. Thank you.

  • 6 votes
#1.10 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:56 PM EDT
Holly-348328

I have dated Jewish people, and their spirituality is masked to the world, while very evident in everday practice.

  • 6 votes
#1.11 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:19 PM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Its the fate of minority groups. That said, it isn't a numbers game with us.

We know what we are here to do. We do it. We endure.

Thanks for noticing. Too many do not.

E.

  • 5 votes
#1.12 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:28 PM EDT
IndependentAmerican2892850

My wife is not at all religious, but very spiritual. She is very generous, loving, and empathetic. I suppose I am Blessed for having her in my life.

  • 4 votes
#1.13 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:28 PM EDT
The Age of AquariusDeleted
Hiram-1381633

Age-

The purpose of these articles is to promote understanding and civil discussion so that we all can find common ground and work together. Please try and refrain from the hostile remarks.

Thanks much
H

  • 7 votes
#1.15 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 4:11 PM EDT
ambivalent

IndependentAmerican, thank you so much for your comment at #1.10. It is a beautiful and courageous witness.

  • 6 votes
#1.16 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:16 PM EDT
IndependentAmerican2892850

Thanks, Ambi. :)

  • 5 votes
#1.17 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:18 PM EDT
ambivalent

Its the fate of minority groups

Like left wing Christians.

  • 5 votes
#1.18 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:57 PM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear IA: I concur with Ambivalent. You and she are blessed to have one another. Itis always good to read of such positive things. Thanks for sharing.

E.

  • 5 votes
#1.19 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 7:47 PM EDT
PeaceBlessing

Dear friends Hiram and Enoch, thanks for sharing each of your individual insight respectfully, very well done by you both.

What has truly helped me in my spiritual growth is accepting that even my best efforts may not be good enough for those around me and/or those I come in contact with. With that understanding, I've learned not to take myself so seriously, meaning, in my heart/mind I truly desire to do unto others as I would have them do unto me, does this always happen, no, I am afraid not. Sometimes, it can be something as simple as someone cutting me off in traffic, I at times have lost my way when this occurred, LOL. But, what I've learned is that if the initial desire is truly there, one tends to discipline themselves along that sincere desire...so, there is something to be said for "practice does make perfect", I, however, would rather admit that practice does assist one in improving and therefore the negative becomes less of the norm, and responding with more self discipline or better said, with less of being an offense either to oneself or to others?

So, instead of responding in heart/mind with, "WTF, you cut me off", I am getting better at responding in heart/mind, "thank you Father for not allowing them to hit me while cutting me off", it really does put a different perspective on the act itself, and I find I calm down immediately which is a good thing simply because the person who did the act in the first place is usually gone on about their business and it is others who usually suffered the consequence of their action and not them at all, LOL. Bottom line, most often it was me and/or those I care about who suffered, I learned this in many ways, but the one that stayed with me was actually seeing the terror in my daughter's face as I went into a rage after one of these occurrences long after the act had been done and the perpetrator of the act long gone...it was like, what am I doing? It takes discipline to do that which is best, (forgive, and move on) I am truly learning that discipline starts with oneself not so much with someone else.

Hi IndependentAmerican,

The great challenge for me in achieving atonement is coming to grips with making amends to someone who may not otherwise have known that they were wronged by me. I fear causing more damage and doubt. I try to rise above the selfish motive of lightening my burden of guilt and I long to believe that with love and respect one may find it in their heart to trust and accept me for having made amends. It is difficult, the all-consuming fear of loss and rejection paralyzes me.

Thank you for sharing your overall comment, however the above stood out for me. This is where I learned if possible it is best not to add insult to injury. Forgive thyself first, forgive those who cause offense and/or request it from you even if it is just by allowing them to go on about their business, but always attempt to do that which is pleasing to our Creator, and IMHO, there is nothing wrong with requesting He be our intercessor in all things according to His will; leave it there, no need to take it with you or take it up with anyone else any further, He truly knows what is in our heart/mind and that is what is most important, and others will see our actions aligning with that which is there as well and that is the best example one can set and I believe from reading your comments you do this very well.

Thanks again Hiram and Enoch, I believe you both set a great example also!

  • 4 votes
#1.20 - Sun Jul 17, 2011 1:02 PM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear Friend PeaceBlessing: It is with much gratitude and humility that I thank you for sharing your unique and most valuable perspective.

Great work here.

You are warmly welcomed to read and comment on all my and our articles. You add a lot.

Sincerely, Enoch.

  • 4 votes
#1.21 - Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:47 PM EDT
Reply
rochart

Atonement or making amends is a subject that I am very familiar with being a human being.

I am grateful for the guidance of the two authors.

I will share what I have learned and what works for me.

The atonement or amends for a wrong is not about me. It is all about who or whomever I have wronged!

If I can and do make an honest and sincere amend(s) to the party I have harmed it is unimportant what there response is to me. Obviously, I would hope, that they would feel relief but I have no control over that. It is likely that if I had taken someone's life there is no way I can correct that situation. If I had taken substantial monies from someone it is also entirely possible that I cannot correct that situation. I could go on with various example, disabling injuries, emotional trauma, etc...

The key is that I am sincere, honest, and truly humbled by my recognition of my shortcoming.

They are under no obligation to forgive me. I must forgive myself and improve, hopefully not repeating my mistake. God may forgive me but of what consequence is that if I cannot?

This is a tiny bit of Buddhism.

  • 10 votes
Reply#2 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 12:23 AM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear Friend Rochard: Thanks for sharing this Buddhist perspective. It is an ancient and wise philosophy.

It is an important perspective. We are grateful to you for bringing it to our attention.

Enoch.

  • 9 votes
#2.1 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 12:27 AM EDT
rochart

Mahalo, Enoch.

  • 9 votes
#2.2 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 12:32 AM EDT
js-445607

Ah rochart I see this in you very clearly. Your post is uplifting. Mahalo

  • 9 votes
#2.3 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 12:35 AM EDT
Hiram-1381633

rochart-

Thank you for your wise words, atonement is indeed a two way street.

H

  • 9 votes
#2.4 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 12:37 AM EDT
rochart

Mahalo, js......

  • 9 votes
#2.5 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 12:39 AM EDT
rochart

Thank you for your wise words, atonement is indeed a two way street.

Wise or just experienced, who can say.

I don't know if it is a two-way street or perhaps circular?

  • 8 votes
#2.6 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 12:43 AM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear Friend Rochart: Is it fair to say in Buddhist thought circular and cyclical, and in middle east to western approaches linear and bi-lateral?

I myself do not know.

E.

  • 7 votes
#2.7 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 1:16 AM EDT
js-445607

As long as it isn't a dead end we have a chance. :)

  • 8 votes
#2.8 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 1:45 AM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Pont taken. Thanks.

E.

  • 6 votes
#2.9 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 8:30 AM EDT
Reply
Kavika

I'll try posting again. My first post disappeared.

Atonement and forgiveness.....Is there a crime that no amount of atonement will receive forgiveness for?

  • 7 votes
Reply#3 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 1:10 AM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Yes, when the Newsvine server makes your posts disappear. That is a bridge too far.

  • 12 votes
#3.1 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 1:13 AM EDT
rochart

You're correct Enoch!

  • 7 votes
#3.2 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 1:16 AM EDT
js-445607

Curses! Oh, wait is that appropriate?

  • 9 votes
#3.3 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 1:46 AM EDT
rochart

It dropped my post when newsvine just went crazy.

In answer to the above question I suspect that amends, I'm more comfortable with that term, and forgiveness are circular.

To properly make amends one must at least be on the path to forgiving oneself. The true recognition of the wrong and owed amend would bring forth honesty, sincerity and humility.

Based upon my experience.

  • 8 votes
#3.4 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:04 AM EDT
Kavika

newsvine must have a an overload....many articles said this page is no longer available, whole articles disappeared...now it's all back to normal.

Enoch, other then making the post disappear is there any other crime?

  • 7 votes
#3.5 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:12 AM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear Friend Kavika: You always see police and county sheriffs at coffee and donut shops. That is because the coffee there is a crime.

Anything done in pre-meditation to defenseless people (children, the elderly, the infirm, the poor, the oppressed: anyone who cannot fight back) is to me a great crime.

E.

  • 8 votes
#3.6 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 8:33 AM EDT
Hiram-1381633

Kavika-

"Is there a crime that no amount of atonement will receive forgiveness for?"

To answer this from a point of Christian Theology the answer is no and yes. If we are referring to forgiveness by God the answer is no. G-d's love is great and there is nothing we can do to remove that love. Another translation for atonement is reconciliation, when we sin we build that wall between us and G-d. When we confess our sins before G-d and repent (turn away) that wall is removed.

Yes in that some people not matter how much they believe G-d has forgiven them cannot forgive themselves. That perhaps is the hardest part of atonement is to forgive ourselves.

Peace
H

  • 6 votes
#3.7 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 8:52 AM EDT
rochart

newsvine must have a an overload....many articles said this page is no longer available, whole articles disappeared...now it's all back to normal.

I think newsvine must have eaten at that diner you guys talk about. ;^)

  • 4 votes
#3.8 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 8:14 PM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear Friend Rochart: We speak of Jays Diner. The whole situation could be corrected if only Jays would change its coffee to local farm grown Kona, and order it directly from family owned and operated farms in Hawaii.

Sorry to bother you with a detail which is not relevant to y our life. Just saying.

E. (Sipping a vat of Ersatz Brothers Coffee. The 100% Chicore coffee made inorganically with Beano).

  • 5 votes
#3.9 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:04 PM EDT
rochart

It sounds as if Jays diner owes numerous amends.

Yes, serving a high quality coffee, the only coffee grown in America, would be a start in the right direction.

  • 4 votes
#3.10 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:18 PM EDT
js-445607

I did a promo for you rochart and sent an espresso machine to Jay's. I really like to hang at Jay's but the coffee is what my Pop called "Lord's Prayer" coffee...you can read the Lord's Prayer through a gallon of it. This is a very urgent and distressing matter.

  • 5 votes
#3.11 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:20 PM EDT
rochart

Mahalo js, stop by sometime and get a free sample when your in the neighborhood.

Or if you want to get really bold we could have a newsvine meetup on our 7 acre coffee farm.

  • 4 votes
#3.12 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:51 PM EDT
js-445607

Newsvine meet up would be completely awesome. Your seven acres would be packed. Would you e-mail your address as I'd love to stop by for a visit and sample of course.

  • 5 votes
#3.13 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:56 PM EDT
Reply
G. H.

Earlier tonight I got *Kicked off* of Newsvine! They wouldn't let me log in, either. So, in a very roundabout way, I found my way in and made a BUG report! Then I went to my email, and there was a note: Newsvine................Atonement. LOL, I thought NV had answered my bug message with "Atonement" for kicking me off!..then I saw it was an article invite by Hiram and my dear friend Enoch! Too funny!

Atonement to me can be broken into three word At One Ment with my Creator. I receive being *at one* ment by praying to ask forgiveness for anything I might have done, that hurt another person by thought, word, or action, asking that each day I will improve a little more. It has been a VERY long time since I have done anything hurtful to someone *Intentionally* (actually several years), but that in no way means I may not have done something without thinking, or seeing a mistake. So I say my prayers every night, while relaxing and sinking into sleep, after asking forgiveness for my shortcomings, whatever they may be. It is very important to me as an individual, to show thankfulness and humility for the uncountable blessings I have and continue to receive daily. To be at peace with oneself is sometimes very difficult and my biggest problem to overcome was forgiving and loving myself.

  • 7 votes
Reply#4 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:32 AM EDT
js-445607

G.H. When I saw Atonement I immediately thought of the movie, which is my all time favorite, Cold Comfort Farm. We must atone for Robert Post's child. So I guess Hiram and Enoch gave us so good laughs today.

Your atonement is lovely G.H.

  • 7 votes
#4.1 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:40 AM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear G.H.: The serenity that comes with genuine atonement is an unsurpassable feeling, is it not?

E.

  • 7 votes
#4.2 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 8:36 AM EDT
Hiram-1381633

G.H.

You hit one of the key points and the being humility many times is our ow pride that gets in the way of our atonement.

H

  • 6 votes
#4.3 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 8:53 AM EDT
G. H.

js...................I can seldom, if ever read an article that includes Enoch without getting laughter and joy! :-)

Enoch, serenity is an awesome feeling, and accepting that I am not perfect helps me to feel serenity and ease in my life. ♥

Hiram, yes one has to shed one's pride to come before the Creator to ask forgiveness, otherwise it is no more than repeating words and honors no one, least of all our Creator. ♥

Nookomis

  • 5 votes
#4.4 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 1:27 PM EDT
js-445607

I'm with you G. H. let's meet up at Jay's Diner for some bad coffee and good conversation. Wait, Enoch, did Jay finally get that espresso machine I sent?

  • 5 votes
#4.5 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 1:46 PM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear Friend G.H.: It is always a day brightening experience when we meet on the Vine. Thanks.

Dear Friend J.S.: If ever there was a need for atonement, it is the coffee at Jays. You may have read or seen performed a play by Paddy Chayefsky about Jays coffee. The Bad Seed!

E. sipping my sins away.

  • 4 votes
#4.6 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:39 PM EDT
js-445607

Oh I was under the impression it was titled "The Revenge of the Bad Bean...the competition is non-existent" Unlike here on the island were our beans are the best. rochart knows and will back my claim. Sip away Enoch I've sent over some acid reflux meds.

  • 4 votes
#4.7 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:50 PM EDT
IndependentAmerican2892850

Thank you, G.H. Your post @ #4.4 was comforting.

  • 3 votes
#4.8 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:03 PM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Comforting indeed. E

  • 4 votes
#4.9 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:13 PM EDT
Reply
Grisham

Very good article Hiram and Enoch. I think of atonement as asking for forgiveness with no expectation that you will receive it. It's the act of admitting your wrong and taking responsibility for that wrong.

  • 8 votes
Reply#5 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:33 AM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear Friend Grisham: Thanks. I agree with your assessment.

E.

  • 7 votes
#5.1 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 8:37 AM EDT
Hiram-1381633

Grisham, that is a wise statement, atonement in no way relinquishes ones responsibility for their actions.

H

  • 7 votes
#5.2 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 8:54 AM EDT
Reply
ambivalent

To apologize to another is the right thing to do, even if we think we are justified. Hurting another is not the Christian way. Atonement is altogether different. It means making it right somehow, which would depend on the circumstances.

To face mistakes, to receive atonement from the Highest, is to confess them to God in the way of prayer. My daily prayers start with praise to the Lord, confession, request to approach, thanks, intercession, thanks and praise. The confession must be first and foremost, one must be clean to approach God. There is no other way for me. Sometimes I have to confess the same thing for a long while, as I am stubbornly human, tenacious. If I should finally notice its absence, I know atonement has somehow been achieved.

Forgiveness is a wonderful and divine accomplishment. I recommend it highly.

  • 9 votes
Reply#6 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 4:41 AM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear Ambivalent: Scripture is clearly on your side. Atonement by the insincere is considered at least as equal an affront to G-d as the sin for which one is atoning. One must be clean, pure, and sincere in atonement. Otherwise, not Divine sale.

Great post. Thanks.

E.

  • 6 votes
#6.1 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 8:39 AM EDT
Hiram-1381633

Ambivalent, my friend Enoch put it well thank you for sharing.

H

  • 7 votes
#6.2 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 8:56 AM EDT
ambivalent

All of our acts are known by God. It is our responsibility as decent people to sift out our wrongs and try to make ourselves right, not His. We probably only have one shot, let's do it as best we know how and create as much harmony as possible. Maybe some day the cacophony of the chaotic world will not be able to drown out our sweet harmony. Wouldn't that be nice. :)

  • 5 votes
#6.3 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 1:07 PM EDT
js-445607

ambivalent I agree with whole heart. It takes a lot more effort to be mean-spirited than sweet spirited. If we keep putting compassion out there someone is bound to notice.

  • 4 votes
#6.4 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 1:12 PM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear Ambivalent and J.S.: The harmony is already beginning. There is no shortage of acrimony on the Vine. The Vine is hardly alone in that on the Internet.

Here, in this and other threads, we have proven that adults who do not agree can in an atmosphere of mutual respect and harmony work together to achieve common goals. Not ion spite of but because of our differences and similarities.

Well done ladies. Well done.

E.

  • 5 votes
#6.5 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:45 PM EDT
Reply
Remote Viewer

Thank you for this very deep and thought provoking article, Enoch and Hiram!

  • 8 votes
Reply#7 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 7:37 AM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear Friend RV: Thanks for honoring us with your presence.

E.

  • 8 votes
Reply#8 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 8:40 AM EDT
Hiram-1381633

Thank you for coming by RV

H

  • 7 votes
#8.1 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 8:57 AM EDT
Reply
Allen Coat

Atonement is needed for most of us, not only to pass on our wisdom, but to heal ourselves. If we look at ourselves in a mirror and see no wrong or room for improvement, then we either have a medical condition, or deceive our selves. I am a Christian, but I don't believe God has revealed all of His plan to us through Jesus, and writings from Prophets.

  • 5 votes
Reply#9 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 9:14 AM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear Friend Allen: We do indeed need atonement. We need it, and so do those around us.

E.

  • 6 votes
#9.1 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 9:16 AM EDT
Reply
Jim-789449

Hi Enoch my dear friend.

I believe atonement can only be achieved with true repentance from the heart, the Bible teaches that when we offend another person, we are to go to that person and ask for forgiveness.

God knows the heart and knows if we are truly repentant of our sin, all too often people ask for forgiveness for a sin today and tomorrow go right back out and comment the same sin again.

I also believe we have to forgive ourselves, carrying the guilt of a sin is a sin with in itself, the Bible teaches that God removes our sin as far as the East is from the West, so if we keep that sin in our hearts and do not let it go, we void the forgiveness of God.

None of us are perfect, and we will always be guilty of committing sin here on this earth, our Creator knows this and knows our human nature, failing does not make you a failure, it makes you human.

Loved the article, very well written, excellent job to both of you.

  • 5 votes
Reply#10 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 9:22 AM EDT
Hiram-1381633

Jim-

Thank you for stopping by and reading. You are correct that part of God's gift of forgiveness is helping usto forgive ourselves. Yet we must also understand that forgiveness does not result in lack of responsibility for our actions. That is what the act of atonement is, it is accepting the responsibility and consequences for our actions.

H

  • 5 votes
#10.1 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:01 AM EDT
Jim-789449

Hiram-1381633

I agree, I taught my kids growing up that everything we do has consequences, some of them bad and some of them good, but no matter which we must accept the responsibility of those our actions.

To me atonement is first owning the sin, admitting that it is a sin and admitting that I committed it, only then can I begin to seek forgiveness, if I am not willing to accept the fact that it is a sin and the responsibility of committing that sin, then there is no remorse on my part.

  • 4 votes
#10.2 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:41 AM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear Friend Jim: Many thanks for your kind words, and the wisdom in your post.

Enoch.

  • 5 votes
#10.3 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:43 AM EDT
Reply
Jackie-2759125

Great article Enoch and Hiram - very interesting. The steps you talk about are some that are used in the AA 12 steps! This passage stuck out to me: "In Christian theology and doctrine there is a definitive value in atonement. A value which applied to all cultures and beliefs is this, according to Noah. When a man is guilty of any vice the best atonement he can make is to warn others not to fall into the like."

Sharing our experience, strength and hope when we are in recovery from transgressions that hurt ourselves and others is a very powerful thing. The more times we share our story, the more it gets reinforced in our own minds and the more people we help who may be facing what we've just been through. There is very little, I believe, good or bad that we go through for no reason. We are in lifes educational system. We have lessons to learn and lessons to teach.

  • 5 votes
Reply#11 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 9:40 AM EDT
Hiram-1381633

Jackie my freind, thaknk you for your wisdom. I love the Proverbs sometimes they get right to the point Proverbs 12:1 "Whoever loves instruction loves knowledge. But he who hates correction is stupid" We should never stop learning and never stop teaching.

Blessings
H

  • 6 votes
#11.1 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:18 AM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear Friend Jackie: Thanks for your visit, and your post.

E.

  • 5 votes
#11.2 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:45 AM EDT
Reply
Abby.

Atonement to me, means acknowledging a wrong, & if at all possible, righting that wrong. At the very least, apologising for that wrong.
For me, it's not about religion, (I'm an atheist) it's about respecting yourself and others.
Thankyou for an interesting article guys.
:)

  • 7 votes
Reply#12 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:10 AM EDT
Hiram-1381633

Abby

Thank you for stopping by, atonement is a universal concept and you are correct it is about righting a wrong and acknowledgement of that wrong. One does not have to be religious to understand the wisdom in such things as you have wisely brought to our attention.

H

  • 7 votes
#12.1 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:21 AM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear Friend Abbie: What Hiram wrote is as correct and on point as what you said. Great work together.

E.

  • 7 votes
#12.2 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:46 AM EDT
Reply
tzia62

To me atonement means to make amends. If one does not make amends, they mentally and physically and spiritualy carry around a heavy, senseless burden. Thanks for the great article!!

  • 8 votes
Reply#13 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:00 AM EDT
Hiram-1381633

tzia,

You are correct in your assement, and it is a burden that many carry and they do not need to.

H

  • 7 votes
#13.1 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:08 AM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear Friend Tzia: Agreed. Atonement unburdens, as it addresses and corrects.

E.

  • 6 votes
#13.2 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:48 AM EDT
Reply
RGoodfellow

As usual with you guys, a very thoughtful, and well presented article. In the Spirit of "enlightening discourse" I submit the idea that "Atonement" is a human construct designed to provide a means by which seemingly "holy" people could do very bad things and still pretend to be in god's good graces. In my own heritage, Catholicism such practices as "Indulgences" were routinely use to "excuse" the corruption and immorality of popes, priest, and wealthy laypeople who could afford "the forgiveness of god" I am now of the opinion that our mis-deeds can not be truly forgiven and that they darken our spirit forever. Although we may become "sorry" for these acts, and may well even be "forgiven" by those we injure through them, we can never be rid of the taint. We shouldn't be! It is the belief that we can be forgiven anything that allows us to continue to make war, kill our brothers and sisters, destroy the planet, and foolishly believe that merely making "atonement" by whatever means your particular belief system calls for, removes your"sins" It doesn't.

  • 4 votes
Reply#14 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 12:05 PM EDT
Hiram-1381633

RG, thank you for your input, I can see your point of view. One might think that on the surface atonement is an excuse,. However if we digdeeper into the concept of atonement it is far from that. Sin can never be removed in becomes apart of us and who we are, we often learn from our sins and that in turn makes us a better person. Atonement is admitting to our sins and realizing the consequences of them.

One of the many overlooked aspects of atonement is repentance. Jesus often chastised the Pharisees for going through the motions of atonement and then turning around and repeating the same sin over and over again. He pointed out to them that theiratonement was then meaningless. Just like the Pharisees we are not only called to atone but to repent as a mark of one who has believed and put their faith in Christ. It by these acts that we can once again have a relationship with G-d by His Grace. With the assurance that the darkness and burden we carry we will never have to carry it alone. That is the beauty of unconditional love is the ability to forgive, if only we all could have such a love for one another.

Peace
H

  • 4 votes
#14.1 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 12:30 PM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear Friend RGoodfellow: If the errant behavior continues unabated, then no meaningful atonement can be said to have taken place.

Kindly note that in my eight point program on how to atone, a mechanism is built in to track where the plan to prevent a repeat of the error (sin) is working.

There is no daylight between us on this point. Going through motions is not atonement.

Lets end on a note of solidarity.

E.

  • 2 votes
#14.2 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:51 PM EDT
Reply
boomer 54

Enoch and Hiram,

I know what you guys are up to with all these articles full of lessons and niceities and love....

I have a hard time subscribing to the idea of sin. There are in my world a host of wrongdoings, spite and general meaness. And guilt. Thank goodness for guilt.

Atonement's just another word for nothing left to lose, but your self respect and basic humanity.

The true and most wonderful value of atonement is a restored relationship and the peace it brings,

yeah, that's it...

Just me and Bobby McGee havin' a cuppa joe at Jay's, wish us luck...

  • 3 votes
Reply#15 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 12:15 PM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear Friend Boomer: Good luck with the coffee at Jays (speaking of sin).

E.

  • 5 votes
#15.1 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:52 PM EDT
Reply
Holly-348328

Your article reminded me very much of AA's 12-step program. There is a step in there where you need to face those you've harmed by your addiction and apologize. Often there's no way to make it right, but you acknowledge what you've done is wrong.

  • 5 votes
Reply#16 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 1:11 PM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear Friend Holly: True. Some times bells cannot be unrung, and clocks cannot be turned back.

That said, we can do the best we practically can to make whole anyone we have harmed (including ourselves by what we did or did not do).

E.

  • 3 votes
#16.1 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:55 PM EDT
Holly-348328

Especially ourselves. I did the most damage to myself when I was alone. But I have also healed the most when I was alone.

  • 3 votes
#16.2 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:22 PM EDT
Enoch-2699399

We enter the world alone, and so we leave it. In between, we need to make peace within, before we can make peace outside.

Shalom (Peace). E.

  • 4 votes
#16.3 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:29 PM EDT
Reply
etva

To atone means to swallow our pride, and remove the barriers our sins built to separate us.

atonement means to reconcile and restore the inward sense of a close relationship to G-d.

These quotes most closely resemble my thoughts on atonement. For me, the concept of atonement comes from within, and is about removing barriers built by the ego of self, that keep us from enlightenment and wisdom, which come from our individual connection with that universal "whatever you want to call it." (G_d, Spirit, Consciousness, Awareness, Energy)

I enjoyed your article. Many thanks to both of you for once again pointing out that our beliefs really aren't that different.

  • 4 votes
Reply#17 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:24 PM EDT
Hiram-1381633

etva, thank you for your input. Ego is such a small word that can cause such big problems. It is amazing that when we take the time to understand one another we often have more in common than we think. It was an honor and blessing for me to share my thoughts in a joint article with Enoch.

H

  • 5 votes
#17.1 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:40 PM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear Etva: As our good friend Hiram pointed out, we have more in common than separates us.

Even better, we have more to gain by working together in fellowship than knocking heads together.

As Hiram and I showed by this collaboration, it pleases all when people of good will work as family.

Thanks for being an important part of this family.

E.

  • 4 votes
#17.2 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:58 PM EDT
Reply
Grim Reaper-2345468

Great article!

I've missed the "vine" greatly...mostly you, Enoch. Your words of wisdom I've been thinking about for months without my computer.

  • 5 votes
Reply#18 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:10 PM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear G.R. : A most cordial welcome back. We missed you greatly.

E.

  • 6 votes
#18.1 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:14 PM EDT
Holly-348328

Grim-

Welcome Back!

  • 6 votes
#18.2 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:23 PM EDT
Grim Reaper-2345468

Thanks, folks. Much appreciated;)

  • 5 votes
#18.3 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 4:02 PM EDT
Abby.

Grim!!!
*hugs*
Where have you been?
We've missed you!

btw, Why aren't you blue anymore????

  • 5 votes
#18.4 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 5:56 PM EDT
Reply
Briwnys

It is the good in us that comes from God. All things, everything in the universe is made of the substance of God and is not only part of God but is complete within itself. It is that goodness, the Awen, the Divine Fire of inspiration, Illumination and Wisdom in ourselves, which is our spiritual connection to God. When we transgress, the good in us is diminished. Being Holy, Hiram has said, God cannot look upon sin. The Druidic interpretation of transgression is not quite the same as the Abrahamic interpretation of sin.It is not that God cannot see sin, but that we lose that goodness within and can no longer see God. That being so, the first and most difficult step toward atonement is to look into ourselves and seek atonement there. We have diminished our soul, our spiritual connection to the Divine. Forgiveness of self is essential before we can seek forgiveness elsewhere.

Self-examination can be a long and arduous undertaking. The Culdee monks often withdrew from society for years while they wrestled with the process. It does require complete honesty. Sometimes, if we continually make choices that lead us to transgress, it means a complete restructuring of our values and goals. We, as humans, can easily become addicted to power and pleasures that are harmful, and like all addicts, the path of return is often overwhelming. We deny and evade the truth until, at last, we accept that we are neither better nor worse than any other human and we move toward change. Then, at last, we can forgive ourselves. It is at this point that we feel the power of Awen return to us. It is at this point that we can ask, and receive, forgiveness of God.

The last step is to return to those we have harmed that which we took from them. Like innocence, once taken, some things can never be restored. All choices have consequences and not all of them are intended, so we cannot know the extent of the damage we have caused. Some relationships cannot be mended, some hurts cannot be healed. Yet, adversity, pain and loss can strengthen as well as destroy. That is beyond our power to rectify. Those whose trust and respect we can regain have not lost their own goodness and it is we who gain strength from their forgiveness. It is to those who are weakened that we must return the most good, which is ultimately all we have to offer in repatriation. These are the ones to which we must make atonement. To the neglected or abused child, parent, friend and lover we must offer the goodness in us. Goodness for anger, for bitterness, even for hatred. This, too, is the gift of Awen.

/|\

  • 5 votes
Reply#19 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 8:27 PM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear Friend Briwnys: Thanks for sharing the wisdom of your tradition on atonement.

It is indeed thought worthy.

Gratefully, Enoch.

  • 4 votes
#19.1 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:08 PM EDT
Reply
screminmimi

So many wise and thoughtful posts to the wise and thoughtful articles by Hiram and Enoch.

1.10 says everything I could possibly think of to say. And Kavika's question... is there anything that could not be reconciled and forgiven..... is something that I must dwell on. There is much atrocity that has been willfully done to bring perverted pleasure to those who brought the pain to children in this world, that I cannot see how G_d can forgive it.

I suppose monsters like these would not be sincere in their quest for forgiveness; therefore, G_d would keep His face turned from them. Would this be true, Hiram and Enoch? Could the beings who take pleasure in the pain and suffering of children seek honest atonement and forgiveness, or would it more likely be that their hearts would never be able to break free of the dark forces that ensnare them?

  • 4 votes
Reply#20 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 8:28 PM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear Friend Mimi: Hiram can speak for his tradition, in a way that I cannot. He knows and lives it. I shall speak from my perspective.

As I previously mentioned, sinning against the least of us, those most unable to self defend is to my and our minds the greatest of sins of human against human. Can G-d accept sincere and legitimate atonement? Yes, but the guilty still have to make whole to the extent practically possible those they hurt. They must also not repeat past offenses. Less than that is not true atonement. In Judaism, the righteous among all nations will have a share in the world to come (Olam ha Bah). Those who are not there do not move on to the next level of being. That is death to the dead. To our way of thinking. our G-d is a G-d of justice and love, mercy and fairness. That is not the same thing as someone who can be played.

Ethnic cleansing, murder, rape, torture, genocide, etc. are all off the table for getting an eternal pass. Those who did so under compulsion, but against their own safety and interest rebelled and joined the forces of good are genuinely and sincerely atoning. Those who went along for the ride do not.

You raise good and important questions. I am glad you did. I myself have more questions than answers here.

It is a sign of being honest.

Your good friend, Enoch.

  • 4 votes
#20.1 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:18 PM EDT
Hiram-1381633

Mimi-

I have been pondering your question and when I search my scripture yes all sin can be atoned for in G-d's eyes. That is the extent of His love for all of us, in that it has no bounds as does our own earthly limits on forgiveness and atonement. We have our own laws that will punish those for what they have done and exact our earthly atonement. Governments and laws were created to protect the weak and helpless. We exact our own justice here and now and G-d will exact His justice when we all stand before Him.

I have to look beyond what I feel is right because being human anything that harms the weak and helpless makes me want to extract vengeance. What is hard to do is to see beyond that and see what G-d says about His justice and grace. The definition of grace is unwarranted favor, that is G-d's promise to us if we turn to Him with a repentant heart and turn away from our sins. There are several things we have to consider that are very important. The heart of the person seeking atonement. Is it a true repentant heart, one that is sincerely humble and seeking true repentance from what they have done. For in the heart lies the truth about whether we are repentant or not. G-d sees beyond what we see and peers deep into our very souls for the truth. 

These are not easy questions and there is no easy answer. I hope in some small way I have give some information that will help. Many times we have questions that just raise more questions. But that is what life does and that is all part of the journey.

Peace and Blessings
H

  • 3 votes
#20.2 - Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:14 AM EDT
Reply
SuperSaiyan

Thanks for the thoughtful article on Antonement.

It really shows what goes into it...

  • 4 votes
Reply#21 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 9:07 PM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear Friend SS: Thanks for your visit, and your insightful comment.

Your Good Friend Enoch.

  • 4 votes
#21.1 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:19 PM EDT
Reply
Neron Kesar

Enoch, are you certain "allocute" in point 1 is the word you intended?

  • 6 votes
Reply#22 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 9:26 PM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear Friend Neron: Yes, I am. However, I am open to any suggestion you have to improve the eight point plan. You know how I respect your sagacity. Please feel free to present a better choice. I am not perfect, as my family can certify.

Enoch.

  • 4 votes
#22.1 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:21 PM EDT
Neron Kesar

I would never dare to lecture you, Enoch. I had to look up the word in the dictionary and found the word meant to make a formal speech.

You have chosen a topic extremely important to our times.

  • 5 votes
#22.2 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:51 PM EDT
rochart

I agree Neron, our politicians owe the country amends.

  • 4 votes
#22.3 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:52 PM EDT
Neron Kesar

Enoch, did you mean allocate; i.e., "to set apart for a particular purpose; assign or allot"?

Our sins are certainly vicariously transferred to a suitable sacrifice as part of the atonement process.

  • 3 votes
#22.4 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:02 PM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Allocute: To vocalize what we did wrong, E.

  • 3 votes
#22.5 - Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:46 PM EDT
Neron Kesar

Thank you for the clarification.

  • 4 votes
#22.6 - Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:20 PM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear Friend Neron: Most welcome. Enjoy the weekend. E.

  • 2 votes
#22.7 - Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:59 PM EDT
Reply
samenslow

I am a believer in the prayer, "Forgive our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us."

If we forgive others, God (or ourselves) forgives us. It is possible the feel the lifting of the spirit. If we allow others to me mere mortal fools, we allow the same for ourselves. If we hold grudges, we also become hardened to ourselves. Rumi's Mathnavi contains many admonishments against holding grudges.

Personally I am not a believer in sin (maybe more in one concept of haram, if something does you more harm than good, do not do it). If we harm another, we must admit to the mistake and make the effort not to do it again; however, when we feel we are harmed, it may be that the one doing "evil" to us has actually done us a favor but we do not know it yet.

  • 3 votes
Reply#23 - Fri Jul 15, 2011 6:43 AM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear Friend Samenslow: Thanks for sharing this interesting and unique perspective on the topic. Please do continue to drop by and add to what we do.

Gratefully, Enoch.

  • 3 votes
#23.1 - Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:44 AM EDT
Reply
Neron Kesar

How can we possibly be at one with God when He as our Father has no home in which to dwell?

  • 3 votes
Reply#24 - Fri Jul 15, 2011 2:47 PM EDT
js-445607

Perhaps God's house/home is the vast collective consciousness of His creations. That would be primarily comfortable with a few glitches. We have the hot water heater or the air conditioner go out and God has to settle disputes now and then. That's about the same.

  • 2 votes
#24.1 - Fri Jul 15, 2011 2:52 PM EDT
Briwnys

Become a Druid. We call both God and the Abode of God by the same name. That is Celi, the Whole. God is also a universal force that flows through the world and which we can encourage to flow through us, bringing inspiration, illumination and wisdom. That is Awen, the Divine Fire. Or you can consider that goodness is not the result of actions initiated by us but is resident in us if we allow it. That, too, is Duw, or God. You can most often find Him resident in your heart.

  • 3 votes
#24.2 - Fri Jul 15, 2011 3:16 PM EDT
js-445607

Very good Briwnys. It helps to believe in all there is in the universe and beyond and very comforting also.

  • 3 votes
#24.3 - Fri Jul 15, 2011 3:26 PM EDT
Neron Kesar

My burden is the Temple in Jerusalem on the Temple Mount. This is what I mean by the House of God.

Atonement takes place in the Most Holy Place of the Temple.

  • 2 votes
#24.4 - Fri Jul 15, 2011 5:20 PM EDT
Briwnys

"Gaedhuil, grandson of the King of Scythia, was bitten by a poisonous serpent. His father, Nuil, a younger son of the king, carried the boy to the Israelites, where he asked for the aid of their leader, Moses. The man of God prayed over the child and touched him with his rod. The boy rose up, healed."

"Moses told the boy that his descendants would go to a land in which no poisonous serpents would live. It would be an island which would be found in the track of the setting sun."

·

Ireland has long been regarded as a sacred and special place with an aura of myth and legend. The ancient Greek scholar Plutarch called it "Ogygia" meaning Most Ancient. The Roman, Rufus Festus Avienus, called it "Insula Sacra" meaning Sacred Island and, in the Milesian myth quoted above, it was referred to as "Innisfail", the Isle of Destiny.

·

Many people have their sacred place, Neron. I mourn with you for the loss of yours. The Celt knows and understands this sense of loss and exile - Fiona MacLeod once wrote, "I think that our people have most truly loved their land, and their country, and their songs, and their ancient traditions, and that the word of bitterest savour is that sad word exile." But then she added, "And true, too, that no tradition from of old is so compelling as the tradition that is from within; and that the long sorrow of our exile is in part because we have driven from us that company of hopes and dreams which were once realities, but are now among beautiful idle words."
 

Our sacred places on Earth are those that establish a center, a point of reference for the Divine to manifest; unlike profane space, sacred space gives us a sense of direction. These are the places where ritual allows what Mircea Eliade called the Eternal Return, where spirit and matter, God and man are brought together in sacred union. One important secret of all ritual is that it sanctifies any space when it is performed with sincerity and reverence. That, as Fiona said, is the tradition that is from within. I hope that thought will bring some comfort to you.

  • 3 votes
#24.5 - Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:53 PM EDT
js-445607

Mahalo Briwnys your words are most comforting. I learn so much from you and you continually provide the most interesting information and insights.

  • 3 votes
#24.6 - Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:58 PM EDT
Neron Kesar

Many people have their sacred place, Neron. I mourn with you for the loss of yours.

It is a temporary loss that will be rectified in due course.

  • 4 votes
#24.7 - Fri Jul 15, 2011 10:04 PM EDT
Holly-348328

Thanks, Briwnys. That is good information.

    #24.8 - Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:56 PM EDT
    Reply
    Dr Know

    Why do you wish for atonement to/with God? What about the person(s) you injured by your actions?

    It is easy to "atone" to an invisible being that you 'believe' exists. It is difficult to atone to a living breathing person in front of you.

    If God "forgives" you but the person does not, is God more important???

    • 2 votes
    Reply#25 - Sat Jul 16, 2011 2:01 AM EDT
    Hiram-1381633

    Dr Know,

    If you had read careful we are atone to the person we injured. That is perhaps the most difficult part as many times we might feel they deserved what they got. They might feel the same way about us.

    If God "forgives" you but the person does not, is God more important?

    That is a good question and the answer is yes G-d is more important. There are people that will never forgive, they want to hold on to their hurt as a badge on honor. Some of them are just to prideful to forgive. Yet when we hold on to that forgiveness when we hold on to that hurt it can does and will slowly harden our hearts from the inside. Forgiveness is not just for the person receiving but it is for the person giving. It is not an easy thing to do whether you are asking or receiving. As a Christian we are command By Christ by God to forgive others as He has forgiven us. It is an indication that we are son or daughters of the living G-d. They shall be known by their fruits it tells us. G-d forgives unconditionally and so should I. Forgiveness does not mean condoning the action but it does release the power that action has or had over you by not forgiving.

    Blessings
    H

      #25.1 - Sat Jul 16, 2011 11:01 AM EDT
      Dr Know

      So the person you injured does not count, just a (possibly) imaginary construct in your mind. Does not that have the possibility that YOU are forgiving yourself? Buddhists believe that all this is an illusion. Perhaps this is what is operating here?

      "You will not forgive me? That's OK. I do not NEED your forgiveness. I do not have to do anything besides "pray" and I will get it"

      • 1 vote
      #25.2 - Sat Jul 16, 2011 11:09 AM EDT
      Hiram-1381633

      Dr Know

      You re reading things that are not there." If you had read careful we are atone to the person we injured" This is a key phrase, you also have to understand there is a difference between atonement and forgiveness. Atonement can lead to forgiveness atonement is the act of making reparation for the wrong.

      "You will not forgive me? That's OK. I do not NEED your forgiveness.

      You are correct I do not "need" your forgiveness. If I ask and you in your own prideful way refuse to forgive that is not a problem I can solve. That is a problem that you have to solve. I do however in Christian theology need G-d's forgiveness and I need to forgive myself. Like I stated forgiveness is not just for those that receive but for those that give. When we hold on to the hurt that gives those that hurt us continued power over us, by forgiving we release that hold and can find peace.

      H

        #25.3 - Sat Jul 16, 2011 11:29 AM EDT
        Dr Know

        So you admit that you do NOT have to atone to the person you wronged. You can simply write them off as "unforgiving". You can make a half hearted attempt or offer something that does not satisfy the injured party. That is OK because you "tried". After all, they are wrong for not accepting your offer. If they refuse they are wrong for being "prideful". YOU get to judge them as being so. You get to feel sorry for them being "prideful". Nothing about YOUR pride at being able to just decide they are wrong.

        • 1 vote
        #25.4 - Sat Jul 16, 2011 12:02 PM EDT
        Briwnys

        Dr Know, thank you for driving home the point I was trying to make in my post @#19. The process of forgiveness and atonement begins with self-examination which requires complete honesty. It is the most difficult first step and for some it is impossible. No amount of belligerence, denial or self-delusion about how good or bad, superior or inferior we may feel we are can hide from the truth: that we are all human, that our actions do cause harm and pain to others and that those injuries narrow our own perspective and ability to empathize, diminishing ourselves. The response to living under the influence of fear, for example, often leads us to assume a persona of false superiority that leads us to attack the beliefs and values of others who appear to have succumbed to the very things we fear in ourselves. Honest self-examination will remove that fear and is the first step toward self-forgiveness and atonement.

        Good luck on your own journey of discovery!

        • 2 votes
        #25.5 - Sat Jul 16, 2011 2:02 PM EDT
        Hiram-1381633

        Dr Know-

        Please point out where I said you did not have to atone. I said atonement is not conditional on the other party forgiving you. I never said anything about half hearted you do the best you can and even then people will not forgive. Yes it is because of pride and yes I do feel sorry for them. I know the pain of not forgiving it is something I personally do not want to carry. As a said when you fail to forgive the person that wronged you still has power over you. Forgiveness is not just for them it is for you.

        Briwnys-

        You are right it does require complete honesty. It also requires humility and kindness and love.

        The inference that I come to some sort of conclusion that I am superior to anyone else is a false accusation. Please either you or Dr. Know please specifically point out where I claim that I better than any other person. I believe that these inferences are reached at least by Dr Know by placing his own presuppositions in what I have actually stated. Please either of you be specific in quoting any inference to superiority so that I might correct it as thagt is nto my intention at all.

        • 1 vote
        #25.6 - Sat Jul 16, 2011 2:54 PM EDT
        Briwnys

        Hiram, please accept my apology. That post was written in defense of your position and directed toward Dr. Know. I'm very sorry you misunderstood. I have never seen any indication you presumed superiority toward anyone. On the contrary, you exhibit those virtues of humility, kindness and love you mentioned.

        • 2 votes
        #25.7 - Sat Jul 16, 2011 3:25 PM EDT
        Dr Know

        I have been taught that there are 3 A words in achieving forgiveness.

        1) Admit - really state that you were wrong

        2) Apologize - sincerely ask for forgiveness

        3) Amends - make a sincere effort to restore the person you wronged to their former state of being

        The message I get from your presentation is that step 3 is not required.

        People today think all three are included in a wave of a hand while saying "my bad". The response of the offended party does not matter at all. You continually say that the party that does not forgive is automatically guilty of pride if they do not immediately and automatically accept whatever effort you make.

        If you break my window while playing catch with a grandchild are you not responsible for repairing it? If I call a professional who says the window repair will be $100 can you refuse because you think a pane of glass only costs $20 at Home Depot? If I refuse to accept your $20 offer am I guilty of the crime of "pride"? Do I have to allow you to do the repair yourself? My windows are double paned with inert gas between the panes for "greener" windows. The professional will replace the escaped gas while you cannot.

        • 1 vote
        #25.8 - Sat Jul 16, 2011 4:53 PM EDT
        Hiram-1381633

        Briwny

        Sorry for the misunderstanding.

        Dr Know

        If you refuse the $20 and it is a $100 dollar window you well within your right to refuse. Atonement in this case and all cases should be sincere and every effort should be made to restore the wrong as best as possible. The pride issue arises when that effort is made and forgiveness is still not achieved. You are mistaking atonement - reparations for the wrong with forgiveness they are two separate things. One (atonement) does not always lead to the other ( forgiveness).

        Some one robs your house they are caught your goods are returned and they spend the allotted time in jail. By all normal standards atonement has been made. You one the other hand do not every forgive them for what they have done. Why not?

        H

        • 1 vote
        #25.9 - Sat Jul 16, 2011 5:48 PM EDT
        Dr Know

        In your example, the perpetrator never apologized nor asked for forgiveness. IF I forgave them, they would never know nor care. They made no atonement. I did nothing to make atonement for unless reporting a crime is an "offense" in your world view.

          #25.10 - Sat Jul 16, 2011 8:12 PM EDT
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