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ENOCH-2699399

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Lives well by G-d's Laws
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Making the Justice System More Just - A Post Troy Davis Perspective By Super Saiyan and Enoch

Sat Oct 8, 2011 9:10 PM EDT
world-news, justice, current-events, troy-davis, death-penalty-use-and-alternatives
By Enoch-2699399
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Our good friend Super Saiyan will cover the present and future steps necessary to prevent a reoccurrence elsewhere of the death penalty application as in the case of the late Troy Davis. Super Saiyan has a deep level of government understanding, and the role of science in the judicial system. You will profit by his wisdom. I shall deal with the past as it helps us going forward. 

SUPER SAIYAN: The recent execution of Troy Davis was carried out, in spite of evidence that brings up more than reasonable doubt about his guilt. There have been other cases in recent decades of death and non-death penalties where people were wrongfully convicted for crimes they did not commit. This suggests there is something fundamentally wrong with our justice system, and society when such sorts of things can occur without any redress. The system seems unwilling to admit mistakes have been made. This is particularly true when there is more than reasonable doubt about the commission of the crime by the convicted. 

In the future, in order to prevent such recurrences from happening I believe a few things should be adopted. First, there must be required DNA tests readily available in really serious cases, such as murder. The State of the Art in Criminal Forensics has to be there as evidence to insure the correct person is charged with the crime. Society is never safer when the innocent are punished, and the guilty free to go out and commit the same crimes again.

Similarly, all lawyers involved, but prosecutiors most of all must make all evidence available to the other side, and through the court system to the public in a full disclosure of non-tainted evidence. Anyone not doing this must be held accountable, if necessary under pain of disbarment and prosecution themselves. This should occur if someone convicted is later found innocent due to legal malpractice. The lives of the innocent, whether the initial victims, or those falsely convicted reflect the true value we give to justice in our society. Only giving the falsely imprisoned monetary compensation does nothing to punish those who unjustly punished them.

I believe that while this has been an issue in recent decades, the execution of Troy Davis makes it even more imperative that this be addressed and improved upon. Anything less fails to meet the standard of "And Justice for All". 

 

ENOCH: Our good friend Super Saiyan has done an exemplary job of stating the issues for the present and future in death penalty cases. Here, I will draw on the past for alternatives to the death penalty. Sought are other means which satisfy the need for protection for society from murderers, without the need for execution of the convicted, some of whom to later be found innocent. Specifically, I shall engage concepts from three portions of the Torah (first five Books of the Tanach (Hebrew and Aramaic Scripture), and Middle Eastern Bedouin custom, law and traditions.

There were six Cities of Refuge set aside by the Levi'im (Temple Administrators) to protect those who unintentionally killed a person. Biblically, the distinction between murder and manslaughter is intention. Murder is specifically prohibited in one of the Ten Commandments. What about someone who didn't plan the demise of a fellow human being? There was no intention to kill. In that part of the world, at that time it was customary for a family survivor to avenge the death of a slain family member by taking the life of their relative. The Levi Tribe, as Holy Temple Administrators set aside six cities of refuge from Temple property given them. This provided protection from avengers. It also removed the judgement and punishment of the involuntary manslaughter perpetrator from the family of the slain to a more impartial and objective source. A High Court of Law. Ultimately, in Biblical times, that Supreme Court would be known as the Sanhedrin.

Life spans were different in those days. Seventy years were then two generations. A Sanhedrin which imposed the death penalty even once in seventy years was considered overly strict. Then, as now, the problem with the death penalty is that State of the Art evidence, and improper Court functioning which lead to someone being falsely convicted and executed creates damage which cannot later on be undone.

In ancient Bedouin Society there were sanctuaries for man slaughterers and murders both. Populations in sanctuaries were co-mingled. Bedouin thinking was to get away from the rest of  society those who took life for other than reasons of self-defense. This is to protect society. Tribes, like nations do have a moral responsibility to protect their citizens. A proper role of government is to keep its people from harm. If you place someone in a sanctuary for life, without chance of leaving the sanctuary, they cannot again take human life in open society.    

Let's see if we can combine the two concepts, and find a way to protect society with no need for the death penalty. If it later turns out that a convicted person is found innocent, they can simply leave the City of Refuge as they walked into it. You don't have to unring a bell if it never rang in the first place. In death penalty case executions, once rung, a bell cannot be unrung.

Cities of Refuge can be set up in places where once you enter, you never leave (unless later on proven innocent). Access to Cities is limited to the military, whose job it is to bring necessary provisions, and to contain the population within the Cities, and restrict access to them from outsiders. Access would presumably be allowed only for Chaplains, supply delivery, and medical personnel. What City residents make of life there is up to them. Standard safeguards of things and people entering and leaving would obtain here, as in any area run by the military. Manslayers go to one set of Cities of Refuge, Murderers to another. This is for the protection of the Manslayers.

This protects society. This also protects those wrongfully convicted from premature loss of life. It is not necessary to take guilty human life to protect innocent other human life. Even as technology improves, people and government do not seem to follow suit. It is not clear in every case up front who is and is not guilty of crimes charged.

Separate Cities of Refuge for manslayers and murderers give us an alternative. I find it an attractive one, for reasons stated. What are your thoughts?                                                                         

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Enoch-2699399

The Code of Honor will be strictly enforced. I know this is an emotionally volatile topic.

We are all adults here on the Vine.Let's reflect that by staying on topic, addressing ideas, not attacking persons.

Snarking, derailing, trolling, insulting, going off topic will all result in deletion. No warnings given. This is warning enough.

That said, the Vine is a place for the presentation of responsible, clearly articulated and well reasoned views. Yours are welcomed and encouraged in that light.

Thanks in advance for your time, consideration, and contributions.

Super Saiyan and Enoch.

  • 9 votes
Reply#1 - Sat Oct 8, 2011 9:17 PM EDT
gatoralum

In the future, in order to prevent such recurrences from happening I believe a few things should be adopted. First, there must be required DNA tests readily available in really serious cases, such as murder. The State of the Art in Criminal Forensics has to be there as evidence to insure the correct person is charged with the crime. Society is never safer when the innocent are punished, and the guilty free to go out and commit the same crimes again.

So, If the monster who walked into the salon yesterday and, in full view of dozens of witnesses, managed to do so without leaving any DNA (which is very likely), then, in your view, he cannot be sentenced to death. If another man is robs a liquor store with no intention to hurting anyone, is shot by the owner, leaving his blood there to be tested for DNA, and returns fire in a panic, killing the owner, he gets killed because DNA is present? That is your solution. DNA is not necessary to convict a person beyond a reasonable doubt. It is not present in most cases. In the Troy Davis case, the evidence against him at trial was overwhelming. The claim that there were seven recantations was not true. He had a full evidentiary hearing to assess the claims of innocence and the Court correctly determined that the claim of innocence was nonsense. He was guilty. Did he deserve to die? No, of course not. There should be no death penalty because there is no way to assure certainty, even with the silly idea of requiring DNA for any conviction.

Similarly, all lawyers involved, but prosecutiors most of all must make all evidence available to the other side, and through the court system to the public in a full disclosure of non-tainted evidence. Anyone not doing this must be held accountable, if necessary under pain of disbarment and prosecution themselves. This should occur if someone convicted is later found innocent due to legal malpractice. The lives of the innocent, whether the initial victims, or those falsely convicted reflect the true value we give to justice in our society. Only giving the falsely imprisoned monetary compensation does nothing to punish those who unjustly punished them.

Prosecutors are required to turn over all evidence. Failing to do so is a serious violation of ethics and may result in disbarment. It will also require that a defendant convicted be given a new trial. In some cases, it will prevent a retrial on double jeopardy grounds.

Defense attorneys can never be required to supply the evidence that may convict their client. That would violate the Fifth Amendment prohibition against compelled self incrimination.

We need to stop trying to find a way to assuage our discomfort over the death penalty by trying to assure that only the "really guilty" get executed. There is no way to assure certainty when fallible human beings are the ones making the decisions.

The "cities of refuge" would also violate several constitutional provisions, the eighth amendment, the firth amendment, for example, as well as the age old presumption of innocence.

  • 1 vote
#1.1 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:09 PM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear Gatoraium: Thank you for sharing your views on this topic.

  • 1 vote
#1.2 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:21 PM EDT
gatoralum

Your welcome. Any response?

  • 1 vote
#1.3 - Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:36 AM EDT
Reply
Grisham

Good article. Tough topic. Thanks for tackling it. As I tried to point out in my article about the death penalty - it doesn't work and should be stopped immediately.

The cities of refuge idea is a good one. I'm not entirely sure how I feel about it. It would depend on the details but it does sound better than the death penalty.

  • 9 votes
Reply#2 - Sat Oct 8, 2011 9:33 PM EDT
Enoch-2699399

I concur. It's all more about how an idea is simplenteted than thnte diea itself.

I also agree with you. The death penalty is tragically flawled in too many ways. We need alternatives which both protect society, and do not make irreversible error when convictions are wrong. History shows that happens.

Thanks for the visit, and the wisdom, my good friend.

Enoch.

  • 7 votes
#2.1 - Sat Oct 8, 2011 9:44 PM EDT
kim me

You can't teach a man anything by killing him. A line from a movie I saw as a kid way back in the last century. My father told me to remember it. I still do and has made me against the death penalty.

  • 9 votes
#2.2 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 12:56 AM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear Kim Me: True. There are also some people you cannot rehabilitate. What we seek here is to protect society, without committing reversible error on execution.

Good post Good point. FR invite sent. Your visits and input are most warmly welcomed in our and my articles.

Peace and Blessings. Enoch.

  • 7 votes
#2.3 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 6:26 AM EDT
Reply
kountryking

Maybe it's early, but I'm surprised that no one has commented that we already have "cities of refuge". We call them prisons. They are truly cities in that their populations are in the thousands, they are self sufficient, provide jobs for the inhabitants, and they can be appealing their convictions for the rest of their lives if they believe they were convicted unjustly.

  • 3 votes
Reply#3 - Sat Oct 8, 2011 9:43 PM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear Kountryking: Prisons are not Cities of Refuge. They are penal institutions. There are stark differences. Prisons have cells with bars, lock downs and a life highly regimented by correctional officers. Cities of Refuge are simply cities where residents live out their lives in such manner as they make them. I do thank you for that thought though.

FR invite sent. I am glad you visited us. You are most welcome in our and my articles any time.

Peace and Blessings. Enoch.

  • 9 votes
#3.1 - Sat Oct 8, 2011 9:49 PM EDT
Reply
etva

My thanks to both of you for the thought provoking article. Humans are fallable, and for that reason, I'm opposed to the death penalty. When I was young, I was taught that our justice system was the best in the world, because we would rather the guilty go free, than to punish the innocent. That doesn't seem to be the case anymore, if it ever was. As you say, you can't unring the bell; but it seems that many people, even those actively involved in our justice system, don't care.

  • 11 votes
Reply#4 - Sat Oct 8, 2011 9:44 PM EDT
SuperSaiyan

No problem...

  • 9 votes
#4.1 - Sat Oct 8, 2011 9:46 PM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear Friend Etva: We are concerned about the precedence given to procedural technicalities where human life is at stake.

Great post. As ever, we learn from your wisdom. Thanks for the visit, and the enlightenment.

Peace and Blessings, Enoch.

  • 6 votes
#4.2 - Sat Oct 8, 2011 9:52 PM EDT
kim me

Seems like the more money you have the less the sentence. Seems like the only reason we need lawyers is because they wrote the laws in their language and they are the only ones available to translate them. Do you see a problem here? I am not religious, but the ten commandments make more sense than legalese.

  • 7 votes
#4.3 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 1:04 AM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear Friend Kim Me: Another astute observation. Agreed. There is a problem with justice being bought and sold to the highest bidder, like winter wheat at a commodities exchange. There are also problems with uneven enforcement of, and uneven application of the death penalty along economic, religious, racial, ethnic, gender and intimacy preference lines.

If a law isn't good enough for eveyone, it isn't good enough for anyone.

Once more, thanks for sharing your considerable wisdom and insights.

Enoch.

  • 5 votes
#4.4 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 6:29 AM EDT
js-445607

The punishment indeed should fit the crime and when one is let off easy and another takes it tough the system is wrong. There is no reason to take life as it is a violation of humanity making the death penalty a violation. Cities of Refuge sounds good to me and if we'd take care in providing the people of these cities with our surplus enabling them to create their own communities and be sustainable I think this would be a plus all the way around. Our rejection of others often leads to demise of someone and that we must face.

No privatization of these cities however as it would cause problems. We the people need to support all of society not just those we "approve" of that suit our ideals. If we start taking care of those in dire straights perhaps we won't need cities of refuge.

Kim me has such a valid point in the inequity of the justice system. Thank you, Kim me!

  • 5 votes
#4.5 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 3:48 PM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear Friend JS: Well said. A closely written well reasoned opinion. You grace us with your presence and acumen.

Thanks for the visit, and the contribution.

Peace and Blessings. Enoch.

  • 4 votes
#4.6 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 4:03 PM EDT
Reply
SuperSaiyan

The article looks great, Enoch.

I also clipped this article to my column and I'm proud to have collaborated on this article with you.

  • 12 votes
Reply#5 - Sat Oct 8, 2011 9:49 PM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Smiles. Just made my whole week. Thanks.

E.

  • 11 votes
#5.1 - Sat Oct 8, 2011 9:56 PM EDT
js-445607

This is a fantastic article SuperSaiyan and Enoch and I wish to thank you for bringing this issue to light. I believe there are many that abhor the death penalty and this needs to be addressed.

  • 6 votes
#5.2 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 3:50 PM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear Friend JS: We do too. Thanks for the visit, and the sagacity.

E.

  • 5 votes
#5.3 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 4:04 PM EDT
Reply
Wm. Sanders

While I do personally support capital punishment, I do have issues with the route taken there. I also feel there should be a moratorium, on a national level, similar to the one in Illinois just a few years back. It's not so much a matter of just what just punishment is acceptable, it's the process. And we are hearing every day, usually via the Innocence Project, of another conviction overturned due to prosecutorial misconduct.

While by and large many prosecuting attorneys are on the straight and narrow, there are the Nancy Graces and Phil Nifongs...the rogues who pervert justice deliberately. It's not just a question of "good faith", in which convictions were obtained with the forensic evidence at the time...it is the deliberate suppression of any and all exonerating evidence that is seriously troubling.

I can't say I am 100% certain of Troy Davis' guilt or innocence, but the fact that a couple of witnesses recanted should have raised some flags. Eyewitness testimony has put a lot of people in prison and on death row...and that same testimony has been shown to be very subjective. Recent brain studies have shown that memory is linked to how our brains are hardwired. Some of us have very clear and concise memories, while others have more subjective and easily influenced ones.

Then there is the junk science factor. In the pursuit of the W, prosecutors have gone so far as to manufacture forensic evidence, which has not been independently verified. Here in my state of Oklahoma (among the worst offenders) we have had some of the worse cases...The Joyce Gilchrist affair which led to many convictions based on flimsy or essentially non-existent forensic evidence. Many lawsuits from that affair are still working their way through the courts.

We just need to overhaul a huge chunk of our system...starting with the investigation and interview processes. Science labs and technicians should be properly certified and independent of political interference. All police interviews should be tape recorded (false and coerced confessions led to a lot of wrongful convictions). Evidence, forensic and otherwise, must be verifiable...like DNA and ballistics.

We also should fully fund our public defenders...our judicial system has become two-tiered. There are those who can afford decent attorneys, and there are the indignant, who must rely on overworked and overwhelmed public defense attorneys, who may not be as competent as they should be.

Well, that's my rant...thanks for giving me the opportunity and platform Enoch. Shalom!

  • 10 votes
Reply#6 - Sat Oct 8, 2011 9:57 PM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Shalom U'vracha, (Peace and Blessings) my good friend William Sanders. Yours is a gem of a post. It is probably the most complete, well thought out, and best crafted reasoning I have seen in posts in my time here at the Vine. You have done us all proud!

I strongly urge all readers who come to this thread to give careful consideration to your points.

  • 7 votes
Reply#7 - Sat Oct 8, 2011 10:28 PM EDT
King Dave

This article exemplifies the moral dilemma of religion. Why religion is not compatible with science, education, justice, ethics, morality, and especially, other religions. As we read everyday, with religious intolerance and violence run amok.

The article preaches without guilt religious forgiveness, without one word of sorrow, concern or sympathy to the murdered victim, off-duty police officer Mark MacPhail, who was shot dead while rushing to help a homeless man being attacked. Relieving all personal responsibility on which all morals and ethics are based. Shameful. This type of guaranteed religious forgiveness is most dangerous, when granted well before a crime is committed.

  • 4 votes
Reply#8 - Sat Oct 8, 2011 10:33 PM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear Dave: You must be commenting on another article.

This article is not based on pushing any one religious view. It is based on holding responsible those in the legal system who do not do their jobs correctly. It is about the mandated application of state of the art scientific techniques, to prevent miscarriages of justice in death penalty, and other very serious cases. It is about finding constructive alternatives to the death penalty, to prevent executing the wrong people. It does not grant automatic forgiveness to the guilty. It addresses the rights of those who are falsely accused.

There is no inherent moral dilemma facing religious or secular moral philosophy in the article.

The tragedy of the death of Mr. Mac Phail is indeed a horrible event. His family will never see him again in this life. He did not get to live out his life full measure. That has nothing to do with this article. In the case of Troy Davis, there were enough areas of reasonable doubt to cast concern about carrying out the death penalty. Not because Mr. Mac Phail and his family are not entitled to justice. Rather, because it is systematically unclear that Mr. Davis was guilty. That is an issue of concern to people of good conscience religious and secular alike. Look at the coalition of unilkey allies who did not want the death penalty carried out because of the reasonable doubt raised.

If you do have constructive, on point recommendations to make on how to improve the criminal justice system, we welcome them. They would be on point here. Rants against religion, because you don't care for it are off point.

All best regards. Enoch.

  • 7 votes
#8.1 - Sat Oct 8, 2011 10:48 PM EDT
Wm. Sanders

Thanx for the gracious comments, Enoch.

And King Dave, in defense of Enoch, and religion...forgiveness and mercy have a need in this world. Granted, there are things that could be considered unforgivable (say genocide). There is a time and place for righteous anger...but if that anger was the end all and be all, or if it is left unchecked to fester within the soul, bad things happen.

Our very codes of law are based on religious tenets. While the founding fathers new that it was dangerous to subscribe to a state religion (as many Americans fled religious persecution from the home country), it was vital to have faith. James 2:2 says "Faith without works is dead." Without faith, in anything, there would be no common goal, no drive to either live or work a virtuous life. Humanists even are driven to at least tolerate their fellow man, whatever their beliefs. Atheists who are so militant as to insist that religion is pointless is no better than the TV evangelist who yells God, God, God and his or her every deed is foul, foul, foul.

Granted, religion should not be used as a license...but that should be saved for a different topic under a different discussion. This is about crime and punishment. And that is why we have statutes of law. Under the Taliban, justice was swift, unmerciful, and probably very unfair (a woman could be raped, but SHE would be punished while her attacker walked free), whereas in the majority of the western world, our laws prevent flagrant abuses of power by the state. Are they perfect? No. But they are far better than either sharia law, or worse, the law of club and fang. Blood vengeance begets blood vengeance, and even if you did get your pound of flesh, it will not return a loved one, or undue the damage done.

That is the point of forgiveness...it's not writing a blank check. It's about letting go and moving on. It should be up to the state to keep dangerous minds away from society, and for citizens like ourselves to ensure that the state looks out for the common good of the whole.

  • 4 votes
#8.2 - Mon Oct 10, 2011 12:43 AM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear Friend William Sanders: Marvelous post. Top drawer. Gold star after your name. I wish I could write as do you. We can all learn from your wisdom. Particularly those who use any article as an excuse to take cheap shots at what others hold sacred.

Peace and Blessings. Enoch.

  • 5 votes
#8.3 - Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:05 AM EDT
SuperSaiyan

That is a great point, Wm. Sanders.

  • 3 votes
#8.4 - Mon Oct 10, 2011 5:55 PM EDT
Reply
bobby3053155

Good evening Enoch, In most instances I'm against the death penalty, but not all. There are several points in the article which have me scratching my head. About DNA testing, The ACLU is against a national data base. An organization which isagainst the death penalty is against one of the key arguments made. I agree, DNA evidence doesn't lie and is needed for a conviction in many instances, it is important. Just pointing out a flaw. As for sharing of evidence, I think we already do that. Your idea of a city of refuge sounds more like self imposed exile,banishment at the very least, with the exception that the guilty party does not have to "pay" for his/her crime.

The system is broken, no doubt but I'm not sure I see the answers to the problem here. On a different note, we are all led to believe it cost more to execute an individual than keep them in prison for life. That's not completely true. 50% of the time it is.

Take care and have a good Yom Kippur.

  • 6 votes
Reply#9 - Sat Oct 8, 2011 10:35 PM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear Friend Bobby: We need DNA both to convict the guilty, and to free the innocent. It is the State of the Art in criminal case forensic evidence. When it is surpassed by better technologies, I think those should be used.

I am unaware of the ACLU rationale behind opposing a national DNA base. I suspect it has to do with privacy issues. Also possible misuses for non-criminal investigations. Without knowing for sure, I cannot comment further.

If you do not care for the City of Refuge idea, please share what you think is better. This is a forum to relevant doscourse. Your ideas are always welcome here.

Yom Kippur (Day of Atonements) came and went. It was, as ever, a most meaningful experience for me. Thanks for your kind and good wishes, my dear friend.

Peace and Blessings. Enoch.

  • 7 votes
#9.1 - Sat Oct 8, 2011 10:53 PM EDT
gatoralum

They are opposed to collecting DNA from every person arrested for even the least serious offenses and putting them in a database, like they have for fingerprints. It is a violation of privacy to do that and also could result in compelled self incrimination.

  • 1 vote
#9.2 - Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:38 AM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear Gatorium: Thanks for illuminating the ACLU position. We appreciate your visits, and sharing you and other view points. This is the best of the Vine. When all are included, and all free to present their way of seeing things.

We welcome your contributions.

FR invite sent. Enoch.

  • 2 votes
#9.3 - Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:37 AM EDT
Reply
DisplayName0

I am one of those whose opposition to DP isn't developed out of fear of ringing a bell that can't be unrung. I am for not ringing the bell at all on other grounds. I doubt we'll ever see a perfect judicial system but, right now, I am not ready to built cities of refuge to be populated with mostly guilty and some innocent people just to avoid wrongful executions. Surely the city of refuge idea is better that errant use of the DP though. While we are imagining something more perfect, my thoughts don't have the DP on the table but does have real due and diligent process and removal from open society of those that commit crimes with sentences, excluding the DP, that are reasonable.

BTW: Did you guys ever read Albert Camus' The Plague. Interesting novel exploring the what might happen inside of a walled-off city. Kind of off-topic. Sorry.

  • 3 votes
Reply#10 - Sat Oct 8, 2011 11:48 PM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear DisplayName0: Good post. Thanks.

I did read The Plague by Camus. I also saw the movie version with William Hurt. I strongly recommend it, if you can get it from Netflix, or some other source.

Enoch.

  • 4 votes
#10.1 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 12:08 AM EDT
Reply
mstanley2265

This I agree should be in place: "Anyone not doing this must be held accountable, if necessary under pain of disbarment and prosecution themselves." There are prosecutions that are done for election purposes and then there are prosecutions done because of ego mixed with not so good police work.

Outside of that the plea bargain system is tainted as well.

Big E, our One Size fits All Prison System grew in proportion as the US grew. The prison system they started out with government kept. Instead of breaking it down according to degree of crime. I don't see how it would be possible at this stage of government to set up a City in the sense of what a city is, for criminals.

At least there is the project to go back and review death penalty cases when there are possible innocents on death row. But we must not forget that there are people on death row that are truly guilty. And they have lived a long time going through the appeal process.

It is good to discuss and work out solutions. But always we must bear in mind there is a penalty for the slaughter of innocents. We must never forget the victims in these cases.

  • 4 votes
Reply#11 - Sat Oct 8, 2011 11:58 PM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear Friend MStanley: We have not. Loss of freedom, never getting out of a City of Refuge, living only with other violent criminals, these are not rewards. They are indeed, for life harsh punishments, but not cruel or unusual.

Thanks for the visit, the insights, and the wisdom.

Peace and Blessings. Enoch.

  • 3 votes
#11.1 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 12:11 AM EDT
Reply
Kavika

I don't know if Troy was guilty or not, but there seemed to be some serious question, recanting etc. That to me is a red flag and I believe that there should have been a delay in the sentence so all could be checked out.

Re your ''city of refuge'' in the Hawiian culture there was a ''city of refuge'' on the Big Island of Hawaii. A bit different then the ones you described but it seems that they were not the only ones in existence. Of course it is no longer in use.

Our system is broken. Too many have been found innocent after their conviction and serving X number of years. Many times it was because of misconduct by the prosecuters. The justice system is actually a two tier systems at the present time. Those with the money to afford a good defense team are rarely sentenced to death. Those without the means to afford a good attorney are left with public defenders, who are usually fairly new in the profession, overworked and underpaid, so the death penalty comes into play. It was just a couple of days ago a man that served 25 years for the murder of his wife was freed on DNA evidence, and there were some serious question as to the fairness of the trial.

As much as I dislike saying it, race comes into the picture. Over the years many people of color were railroaded by what is called a ''jury of their peers''...this I find to be false, it is rarely a ''Jury of their peers''...Again the money issue comes into play, to the detriment of the accused.

I have little faith in the system as it is, and would hope that major changes are made so that everyone has a fair and honest trial. Be rich or poor each is entitled to the best defense and an honest and forthright trial.

Very good article.

  • 4 votes
Reply#12 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 1:10 AM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear Friend Kavika: Race is one of a number of things which should never be a factor, but all too frequently are.

In the case of Troy Davis, witnesses recanted testimony, he recanted his confession, there was no forensic evidence, DNA or otherwise to prove the case. Finally, another person actually confessed to the murder. There is reasonable doubt all over the place here. I am not saying Mr. Davis did not commit the murder. I do not know. I was not there. I did not hear all the evidence presented at trial. I also do not know if evidence relevant to the case was disclosed to the defense. I hear that is a factor too.

There is a serious problem with money, emotions, prejudices, prosecutorial misconduct, and other things that prevent rather than facilitate justice here, and in other cases. That is why Super Saiyan and I chose to write this article. The Davis case raises a number of issues well worthy of our consideration as Viners.

If anyhone has a better idea than Cities of Refuge, I hope they share them.

Thanks for bringing out the forefront the 900 pound elephant in the room. It is certainly a factor in this discussion.

Peace and Blessings. Enoch.

  • 5 votes
#12.1 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 6:38 AM EDT
js-445607

I have read about and visited the City of Refuge here on the island. It seemed a lot better idea than having some group of people decide the fate of another especially if the decision was to issue the death penalty.

  • 5 votes
#12.2 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 3:54 PM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Agreed. no daylight between us. E.

  • 4 votes
#12.3 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 4:05 PM EDT
Reply
Kearney Outlaw

Very good article, as I would expect from the both of you.

As I have said elsewhere on matters of justice and injustice, we, as a society have to decide between penitence or rehabilitation. A "one-size-fits-all" incarceration system just doesn't work, especially when the death penalty is included in the equation.

I realize that not every criminal can be rehabilitated, but certainly a percentage can be successfully taught to reenter society. I find it sad that not enough effort is spent to make distinctions between these groups of people, and nor is there a commitment from us to do so.

  • 5 votes
Reply#13 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 1:37 AM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear Friend KO: There is indeed a difference between punitive and rehabilitative justice. I would also throw into the mix rectificatory, preventative, and defensive justice as well. A monolithic approach cannot cope with all these various forms of justice structurally.

Moreover, in death penalty cases, errors in the system are just as lethal and irreversible as the murders in question themselves.

Great points. Thanks for the visit, and for sharing them.

See you are the White Chapel Article Series.

Enoch.

  • 6 votes
#13.1 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 6:43 AM EDT
Reply
There They Go Again

Gentlemen,

I am not against the death penalty per se; not because I believe in retribution, or in "justice", but simply because I believe that there are some who are so dangerous that they must be removed permanently without any possibility of escape or parole or pardon by a corrupt President or Governor. That said, there must also be protection against wrongful conviction, since the death penalty is so permanent. The standard of evidence in death penalty cases must, therefore, be changed, from "beyond a reasonable doubt" to "beyond any possible shadow of a doubt". If this standard is met, the death penalty should be carried out. If there is any doubt whatsoever, the sentence should automatically become life in solitary confinement without possibility of parole or pardon until and unless that shadow of a doubt is removed. If it is the person should be executed. If new evidence shows that the convicted person is not guilty or that the guilt is below the "reasonable doubt" standard, they should be released or the charges should be reduced accordingly.

  • 4 votes
Reply#14 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 4:58 AM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear TTGO: Great exposition. I have not seen a better articulation of this stance. Thanks for sharing it.

Enoch.

  • 4 votes
#14.1 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 6:45 AM EDT
Abby.

I'm with TTGA on this one.
100%

Enoch & Super Saiyan,
A well written piece, both thought-provoking & eloquent.
Thankyou for sharing your views on this volatile subject.
Two thumbs up.
:)

  • 5 votes
#14.2 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 4:02 PM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear Friend Abby: Opposable thumbs. Where would be be without them.

Thanks for the acumen, and your visit. E.

  • 6 votes
#14.3 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 4:07 PM EDT
Abby.

*hugs*

  • 5 votes
#14.4 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 4:10 PM EDT
Reply
j. johnson-3157491

Enoch, Super how are you my friends? heavy topic the idea of grouping convicted in a city like confinement, sounds a lot more humane then the present overcrowded systems of today. restraint of alleged criminals have taken many forms through time. my first concern would be for those innocents placed in a gen pop of actual guilty persons. birds of a feather recognize different feathers, an undeserved attacks would more than likely run rampant. stationing of correctional person's would be only possibility of protection of those not proven innocent. which i think has jacked the original innocent till proven guilty. we all have seen tv court drama's, the voracity that the DA goes after the already revealed to us as innocent, is i can't come up with a description of how unfair, i know the system is suppose to be based on an adversarial concept but even with that in mind it's an unrung bell that can totally destroy lives and families, even if acquittal is the verdict. recanting by legal entities get buried on page d24 at the bottom. corruption is rampant throughout the judicial system from the beat cop to the SCOTUS. my daughter is a correctional officer, she tells me of the daily condition of the average prisoner it is not all bad in her particular appointment. the power's that be now want and have constructed more prisons they blame it on not crime rising but number of convictions, tends to indicate more concern for filling those cellblocks then giving of constitutional right to fair and speedy trial (death row years of interment after conviction and sentencing to death). this has been a characteristic of the entire life cycles on earth, plants battle for sun and water overtaking other less dominant plants like a blade of grass and a tree. animals for food and hunting advantage and mates, humans no different, except we like to claim the humanity puts us on top, even though it is Gods intent we have failed miserably. wars, man's inhumanity to man. from "cheer's" tv show's Norm when asked how's it going responded "it's a dog eat dog world and i'm wearing Milkbone underwear". phrase's like only the strong survive are indicator's of the dominant force's control the population primarily with fear and intimidation. the same way that DA goes after that innocent threatening their freedom or future prospects with Bubba.

i guess after writing this it is just another way to subjugate innocents in the name of who ever is in power's laws. the resulting attacks and corruption with guards bringing in drugs in let's not forget the prostitution that is rampant in today's prisons if you've ever visited someone incarcerated not uncommon to see ladies on lap's bouncing. the prison's are already earmarked for privatization by right, that gesture alone gives the impression of the money to be made IMO primarily by criminal investment. just sayin' be strong my friends God Bless

  • 5 votes
Reply#15 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 9:33 AM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear JJ: Thanks for the insights. Whatever we do, it will not ber perfect. I can think of few dumber ideas than privatizing prisons.

The Cities of Refuge are problematic. Separating unintentional killers form premeditated murders should help. No guarantees. At least we are not taking human life only to later find innocence. It does get off the street people, many if not most of whom are guilty. It also gives them a second chance to make a new and better life for themselves in a confined space. In a City of Refuge, there would be no correctional officers, as in a prison. There would only be military outside to contain and prevent break outs.

Much gratitude for the visit, and for the good points.

Peace and Blessings. Enoch.

  • 5 votes
#15.1 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 11:41 AM EDT
j. johnson-3157491

thanx Enoch, still a concern for those innocents that would be preyed upon by the criminals. no correctional's inside would lead to a total anarchy from within, eventialy deaths by hand or food taken and water starvation, dehydration worse then prisons and the afore mentioned drug and prostitution, rapes of indefenseable inmates, disease, doctors afraid to enter the facility. at least there is a presence there in prison's, corrupt as it may be has to play a part in lowering incidents. then the guilty convicted that did not commit capital crimes with short sentence's at the mercy of lifer's and career criminals. as far as safety of which i thought was the focus of wrongly convicted that is IMO not the safest place to be. all do respect my friend stay strong God Bless

  • 5 votes
#15.2 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 12:06 PM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear JJ: The Cities of Refuge are for convicted murderers and in separate facilities, convicted manslaughterers only. Only death penalty cases, where the City substitutes for execution. All other criminals go to jail. Enoch.

  • 5 votes
#15.3 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 12:15 PM EDT
j. johnson-3157491

"Dear Friend Kim Me: Another astute observation. Agreed. There is a problem with justice being bought and sold to the highest bidder, like winter wheat at a commodities exchange. There are also problems with uneven enforcement of, and uneven application of the death penalty along economic, religious, racial, ethnic, gender and intimacy preference lines".

i understood the premise but as stated the awareness of inequities within the process, can lead to improper retention of the innocent. nobody knows the real amt of wrongful incarcerations. or the in house injustice's done in the name of punishing the guilty, who may not be guilty. that being said there can be no fool proof litmus test of innocence in a accused of guilt scenario. much respect my friend, God Bless

  • 5 votes
#15.4 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 2:40 PM EDT
Reply
j. johnson-3157491

ps to #15 my daughter is on an all male tier with all sorts of offender's murder to assault and burglary, scares hell out of me but try not to exhibit that in front of her. don't want to put something on her mind she is an intelligent and strong women most important grown.

  • 6 votes
Reply#16 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 9:41 AM EDT
Enoch-2699399

C.O.'s are well trained, and know how to do their jobs. I am sure she is a consummate professional in that difficult setting.

Enoch.

  • 5 votes
#16.1 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 11:42 AM EDT
j. johnson-3157491

you're right but she's my babygirl:+o) and 38 yrs. old must respect her decisions.

  • 5 votes
#16.2 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 12:11 PM EDT
Reply
Bad Fish

As long as we humans are involved in the process of the justice system, error is a possibility. For this reason i cannot support the death penalty. The system must be forced to account for our short comings. Final judement must be left for something greater than us.

  • 7 votes
Reply#17 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 10:41 AM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear Bad Fish: Well said. We can only do the best we can. That is all there is. In the case of the death penalty, all there is isn't enough. Hence the Cities of Refuge idea, modified.

FR invite sent. Many thanks for the visit, and this valid concern.

Peace and Blessings. Enoch.

  • 6 votes
#17.1 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 11:45 AM EDT
Reply
Al-316

Excellent and timely topic, SuperSaiyan and Enoch.

Our justice system is indeed flawed. One example is the jury system. I served jury duty on a criminal case and when all the evidence had been seen and heard, we, the jury, were to determine guilt or innocence. We took an initial vote to see where we were and everyone voted guilty except one, that was me. I explained why and discussions began. At the end of the day, the vote was unanimous ... not guilty. My point is that a jury of peers is not infallible.

I am not sure what the cure for our justice system would be, but I do see problems when the goal is to win rather then to find the truth.

It was said a long time ago "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."

Never-the-less, we have a responsibility to ourselves and each other to discourage criminal conduct and protect ourselves against the incorrigible.

Who benefits when an innocent person is executed?

Thank you, my friends, for providing this opportunity for discussion.

  • 8 votes
Reply#18 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 12:21 PM EDT
j. johnson-3157491

good situation when the jury did not close their minds and were willing to listen good lookin' out for the defendant

unfortunately what the law see's as ones peer group you have to consider most will not accept an association in peer capacity with an accused rapist or murder thereby making a fair trial a little less assured. those jurors feeling a sense of superior citizens to "the garbage before them", then there is the true non peer affiliation, morals and accepted way's of life being different cannot think on same level, understanding the legitimacy of the accused not jiving with their moral indignity, again not good for accused. like they say no money no justice or preception of due justice in the end just us. be strong my friend God Bless

  • 6 votes
#18.1 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 12:50 PM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear Friend Al: Agreed on every point. Well said. Many thanks for the visit, and the sagacity. Technology can cut down on human error. That said, labs do report false positives too. Death penalty cases can be handled without further blood shed. The Biblical idea of Cities of Refuge, as modified, can speak to that.

Peace and Blessings. Enoch.

  • 5 votes
#18.2 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 1:07 PM EDT
Reply
Pat from Montana

Gentlemen that was so well written...

There have been very few people that I never knew that I cried over. The injustice done to Troy Davis is one of those times. I am so ashamed of our "Justice System". I believe the scales of justice had a thumb or two on the scale on that one.

I have been a victim of a very violent crime. I was among other things kidnapped, beaten repeatedly and left for dead. Do I think that person should have been put to death....no I do not.

That being said I do believe in the Death Penalty in certain cases. But there is no doubt in my mind that they MUST be PROVEN to be guilty beyond a reasonable doubt x 2.

The life taken of just 1 innocent person is a crime that should make every person on the parole boards cringe in their sleep and cry in their waking hours. Maybe they should be the people that have to do the executions. Then they should have to deal with their own conscious.

  • 6 votes
Reply#19 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 1:16 PM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear Friend Pat from Montana. I am most sorry to hear of the horrors which befell you.

That you still have the generosity of spirit to feel compassion speaks volumes about your fine character. Would there are more like you.

Peace and blessings. Enoch.

  • 4 votes
#19.1 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 3:17 PM EDT
Reply
Remote Viewer

In the future, in order to prevent such recurrences from happening I believe a few things should be adopted. First, there must be required DNA tests readily available in really serious cases, such as murder. The State of the Art in Criminal Forensics has to be there as evidence to insure the correct person is charged with the crime. Society is never safer when the innocent are punished, and the guilty free to go out and commit the same crimes again.

It is not necessary to take guilty human life to protect innocent other human life. Even as technology improves, people and government do not seem to follow suit. It is not clear in every case up front who is and is not guilty of crimes charged.

Thank you, Super Saiyan and Enoch, for this thoughtful article. Our penal system is desperately in need of reform, and your suggestions make far more sense than any "solution" pushed by the current crop of politicians.

  • 8 votes
Reply#20 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 1:48 PM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear Friend Remote Viewer: Thanks for the support, and the acumen shown.

Super Saiyan and I are not running for office. We have no need to pander to anyone.

The answers to our problems are all around us. We just need to depoliticize the justice process to get America on the better track.

Peace and Blessings. Enoch.

  • 5 votes
#20.1 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 3:21 PM EDT
Remote Viewer

We just need to depoliticize the justice process to get America on the better track.

Agreed, dear friend Enoch. We also need to take the profit motive out of the process along with all other processes intended to serve the public interest but currently failing miserably. Politics and profit are inextricably intertwined in a truly toxic mess as of now.

  • 5 votes
#20.2 - Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:56 AM EDT
SuperSaiyan

That is a great point...

  • 6 votes
#20.3 - Mon Oct 10, 2011 2:33 PM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear Friend Remote Viewer: Agreed. Well said. Thanks for bringing this to our attention.

All warmest regards. Enoch.

  • 4 votes
#20.4 - Mon Oct 10, 2011 3:08 PM EDT
Reply
screminmimi

There are way too many instances of guilty people being found to be innocent after spending years incarcerated for the crime.

For that reason alone, the death penalty should be abolished.

I just don't know where we would put these type cities with complete assurance that hard core murderers would not escape.

  • 5 votes
Reply#21 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 5:27 PM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear Mimi: Agreed. Think rural, basin and swamps. Natural barriers. Here in New York State, prisons are build on the bottom of basins. The high inclines from the basins are a natural barrier to slow down escaped criminals. So are swamps, forests, marshes, and other natural occurrences which slow down people on foot. Typically, Cities of Refuge and similar institutions are built so that they are always surrounded by electronic and physical assets, in case of escape.

Great post. Thanks for the visit, and the wisdom.

Peace and Blessings. Enoch.

  • 6 votes
#21.1 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 6:00 PM EDT
js-445607

Rebuilding Alcatraz might be a great idea.

  • 4 votes
#21.2 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 8:13 PM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Will Col. Harlan Sanders be the new "Birdman of Alcatraz"?

  • 5 votes
#21.3 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 9:18 PM EDT
js-445607

We could give him an honorary title!

I just keep wondering if we treated each other much better how little we'd have to worry about violence among us. I think evil is a learned trait from abuse and neglect.

I believe Norway has a bit of a Refuge for their prisoners. I saw a video not too long ago and I'll try to find it again. It was very interesting how the prisoners interacted with one another.

  • 4 votes
#21.4 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 9:48 PM EDT
Enoch-2699399

That would be interesting to view. Please keep me in the loop. Thanks for the heads up.

Enoch.

  • 4 votes
#21.5 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 10:00 PM EDT
js-445607

Ah, ha, I found it. Hope you are OK with Michael Moore. There are a few more videos but I liked this one best.

http://youtu.be/01mTKDaKa6Q

  • 4 votes
#21.6 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 10:32 PM EDT
Enoch-2699399

I am fine with Michael Moore. I enjoyed the video greatly. It makes a good point.

This is about the Norwegian Prison System.

It is not the same as a City of Refuge. But is is instructive. It seems to be effective, although I would need to see over all statistics to know, on rehabilitative justice.

Questions about preventative, rectificatory and punitive justice are not answered on it. Those too would be of interest, for a full more rounded view.

Thanks for including the link. It is well worth watching. I highly recommend it to anyone reading posts in this thread.

Peace and Blessings (Kavli Bread and Jarlsburg Cheese) Enoch.

  • 5 votes
#21.7 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 10:52 PM EDT
SuperSaiyan

I totally agree with your sentiments, screminmimi.

  • 4 votes
#21.8 - Mon Oct 10, 2011 2:34 PM EDT
js-445607

The model that Norway presents does have many other hints as to what might help us be a more peaceful country. One thing that bothers me about the US is we have not been successful in creating an equal society.

The city of Refuge sounds good to me no matter. I think however that if we move away from allowing money to be the deciding factor in representation we'd be a long way down the road.

  • 4 votes
#21.9 - Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:55 PM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Agreed. We can all learn from others, Norway included.

  • 4 votes
#21.10 - Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:52 PM EDT
SuperSaiyan

Indeed we can...

  • 3 votes
#21.11 - Tue Oct 11, 2011 6:01 PM EDT
Reply
Isabella-37

I am for the death penalty in the most heinous of killings, especially when it involves children who are raped and tortured before they are murdered, and only where there is DNA proof that leaves no doubt whatsoever of guilt. The death penalty should never be handed down where there is no DNA evidence, only eyewitness testimony, as was the case of Troy Davis.

It's my hope that those who worked so diligently to save Troy Davis continue their fight to prove his innocence. Hopefully, the truth will someday come out so the death of an innocent man won't be in vain, that it will bring about changes in our judicial system. Law enforcement in this case were out for revenge for the killing of one of their own, they weren't interested in digging for the truth when all but one or two of the eyewitnesses they strong-armed recanted.

I honestly believe there are some who were involved with the investigation and prosecution of this case who had their doubts about his guilt, but did nothing to stop it. I don't know how they sleep at night.

  • 7 votes
Reply#22 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 6:35 PM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear Isabella: Great points all. I am most sympathetic. Thanks for sharing. Enoch.

  • 5 votes
#22.1 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 7:23 PM EDT
screminmimi

Isabella -

I had another paragraph in my post that I deleted before posting... it said, in effect, that when the torture and death of children were involved and guilt was 100% established, it was impossible for me not to feel the rage and anger that calls for the death of the criminal.

That is a hard balance to keep when trying to discuss the death penalty in a strict "Yes/No" forum, so I deleted that portion of my comment.

Even in the case of the two judges in PA who took bribes to fill up private detention centers with kids who didn't deserve to be there, and ruined the lives of over 4,000 children and their families... and in at least one case, the child committed suicide.... I wanted to personally kill both those men.

Where evil touches children, the desire for retaliation on their behalf becomes overwhelming at times.

  • 5 votes
#22.2 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 7:29 PM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear Friend Mimi: Is there anyone lower than an individual who kills, exploits for profit, tortures, abuses, or in any way mistreats a child, the elderly, the infirm, and the poor?

I join you and Isabella in my strongest contempt for such abhorrent misconduct.

Enoch.

  • 5 votes
#22.3 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 7:33 PM EDT
Im 4Me

The death penalty should never be handed down where there is no DNA evidence

This statement by Isabella in #22 probably sets the proper condition in my mind. A heinous crime (by law) with DNA to confirm and I would agree with DP.

  • 3 votes
#22.4 - Tue Oct 11, 2011 7:59 PM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Thanks for the viewpoint. Forensic evidence does help in many cases to establish guilt or innocence in an objective way.

  • 4 votes
#22.5 - Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:17 PM EDT
Reply
Mrs D-1475814

I don't know about the situation with Troy Davis and I don't know you personally Super Saiyan (hello!) but I do know you Enoch. I truly appreciate the article that you both co-authored. Excellent!! I sincerely do not know the ins and outs of things... but, I do know with modern technology there are many people who should not be in prison.... and many more who should be in prison for false statements. Corruption? I do believe the judges and lawyers are in collusion! All I think about is with the DNA available to the courts they still refuse to hear "current" evidence? Really? To me that would be premium. WTF? Why do they refuse to hear pertinent evidence? I will never understand this sad fact about our justice system. :( Thank you both for writing an article that I pray more will understand more about the corruption in the judicial system, politicians and the media.

And, I work for law enforcement and we all ask the same questions as I have posted. :(

  • 5 votes
Reply#23 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 6:36 PM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear Mrs. D: Most in law enforcement and the judiciary are doing a best efforts basis under difficult circumstances. Science, can and will continue to be a part of the answer.

Part of it, in the case of death penalty cases is that there will never be 100% clarity in too many cases. Hence the recommendation about the modified Cities of Refuge idea.

Thanks for all the good work you do in law enforcement. I have nothing but respect for America's finest.

Peace and Blessings. Enoch.

  • 5 votes
#23.1 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 7:28 PM EDT
SuperSaiyan

Those are very good points, Mrs D-1475814...

  • 4 votes
#23.2 - Tue Oct 11, 2011 6:02 PM EDT
Reply
dxsweDeleted
Enoch-2699399

Comment number 24 was deleted because it is an advertisement for a clothing web site. The sender of this ad is free to contact Newsvine staff, and pay for advertising space.

Advertisements not cleared and space purchased with the Newsvine do not belong in this article.

No free ads!

Enoch.

  • 7 votes
Reply#25 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 9:39 PM EDT
Kearney Outlaw

(Shhhh...

Except for Jay's Diner.)

  • 6 votes
#25.1 - Mon Oct 10, 2011 12:05 AM EDT
Enoch-2699399

LOL

  • 5 votes
#25.2 - Mon Oct 10, 2011 12:09 AM EDT
Abby.

*giggle*

  • 3 votes
#25.3 - Mon Oct 10, 2011 12:18 AM EDT
Enoch-2699399

How are things down under Abby?

  • 3 votes
#25.4 - Mon Oct 10, 2011 12:38 AM EDT
Reply
tzia62

Unfortunately all I can add is that I have very mixed feeling about this topic. I'm sure if a loved ne were being sentenced, I would have no problem saying "no death penalty.: It's tragic when people are put to death,and then found innocent. I just don't know where I stand. Sorry!

Great topic, and very thought stirring!

  • 6 votes
Reply#26 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 9:59 PM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Dear Friend Tzia: It is enough that you came, and give this troublesome problem consideration. We are always grateful for your visits, and contributions.

Peace and Blessings. Enoch.

  • 5 votes
#26.1 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 10:02 PM EDT
tzia62

Thanks! :-)

  • 5 votes
#26.2 - Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:00 PM EDT
Enoch-2699399

Most welcome. Always.

  • 4 votes
#26.3 - Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:35 PM EDT
Reply
kgfreDeleted
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